Flying the Flag

[Baldoraxx]

I don't rant much but this just gets me going....So this isn't so much about people trying to take down the Confederate flag so much as the bigot and idiotic comments that ensue from news posts. Now, most of you know which party I affiliate myself with but I also go to many different news outlets to see what all sides are talking about for the story. I've gone to the right wing news, left wing news, and multiple third party news outlets and the one thing I found in common from all sites? hateful, racist (towards caucasian) and idiotic banter from the comments section and this was towards the "south" and the way we live. Nothing in any particular to the flag except a handful out of the hundreds I read.

It boils my blood when a topic such as this gets twisted and brought so far out of control that the brainwashing is clearly seen and will not change overnight. Does nobody read a history book anymore? Some of the best comments were...."the main reason the war ensued was because of slavery" "You held slaves so we beat the crap out of you" I keep hearing this over and over again but did they not know that the "all mighty all defending north" held slavery to the same standard the south did. Love the twist in irony there. I guess the old story is true, the winner gets to rewrite history and the future to their making. (I know the history books still tell the truth about the north holding slaves but for arguments people continue to forget this fact)

More comments come through about racist whites are the only people who are racists. Nobody else is allowed to be a racist. Well, when someone yells "CRACKER" or something similar to a white person, you don't see the NAACCP (National Association for Advancements of Caucasian People) or how if we had a WET (White entertainment television) would be racist but BET isn't? How about black institutions of learning? The list can go on and on and on. This main long and drawn out point comes from the comments and the news recently of how news outlets portray only white people as racists but don't look towards black on black crime (number one killing crime in the USA, bet they didn't tell you that) or about the kid who got killed by a black man the other day, I'd call that a "hate" crime or a "racist" crime but I can't

Phew I feel better. I know it got off topic a bit but the whole point was delirious comments from news outlets.

P.S. I don't mind the flying of the flag because of the noble reason behind it's meaning.

 

[Euchale]

I can hear ya. Up until 2006 (football world cup in Germany) it was very rare to put up the German flag due to what happened during the second world war. Being a proud German meant being a Nazi.
Luckily this has finally changed and people can bring out their flags again.

There is a reason, that I don´t agree with, why you can´t be racist towards white people. It´s because you are the majority. And a minority can´t suppress a majority.

It´s the same thing with sexism. Sexism can only be towards women. People would scream if there were men-only parking spots or similar men-only things.

 

[Simpwn]

I have two schools of thought on this. I'll start with the most important of the two.

1) This entire debate over the confederate flag is distracting from the real issue here. A crazy white dude with a gun went into a church and murdered 9 people. The last few days has been more about what the government is going to do about the confederate flag than what they are going to do to stop this kind of senseless violence. The media is using the flag to ignore the real issue here. I don't know what the right answer is whether it be more gun control, more crazy people control, or what. All I know is those 9 people need to be the focus of this disaster and not some 150 year old piece of cloth.

2) Onto the flag itself. Who the fuck cares about the confederate flag? They lost. It's over. Get rid of it. I'm still baffled why it wasn't removed right after the war was done.

 

[Baldoraxx]

I have two schools of thought on this. I'll start with the most important of the two.

1) This entire debate over the confederate flag is distracting from the real issue here. A crazy white dude with a gun went into a church and murdered 9 people. The last few days has been more about what the government is going to do about the confederate flag than what they are going to do to stop this kind of senseless violence. The media is using the flag to ignore the real issue here. I don't know what the right answer is whether it be more gun control, more crazy people control, or what. All I know is those 9 people need to be the focus of this disaster and not some 150 year old piece of cloth.

2) Onto the flag itself. Who the fuck cares about the confederate flag? They lost. It's over. Get rid of it. I'm still baffled why it wasn't removed right after the war was done.

Yes, I know this is a blow over of the whole spectacle that happened in SC but that isn't part of the article I am talking about here. I am talking about a flag which symbolizes the south, courage, good times and family. It is a sad tragedy but like I was saying above, this also has to do with racism. What this child did was a racist act taken out on unarmed civilians. Reverse the situation and I bet it wouldn't make national news and spark a whole "flag" debate. It would probably be seen just in the obituary area in a paper.

Part of your number two....I care, Italy loses to the united states in soccer but you don't see us telling people to remove their flags in New York. Mexicans fly their flag everywhere but we don't tell them to remove their flag. A state has their "own" flag, why do we not just keep the US flag and tell them to dissolve their flags and adopt the "one" flag of America.

 

[Baldoraxx]

There is a reason, that I don´t agree with, why you can´t be racist towards white people. It´s because you are the majority. And a minority can´t suppress a majority.

It´s the same thing with sexism. Sexism can only be towards women. People would scream if there were men-only parking spots or similar men-only things.

I agree but it still pisses me off that their is bigotry out there that think sexism and racism goes ONE way and not the other. THIS is why I am pissed off, aka rant.

 

[Passage]

black on black crime (number one killing crime in the USA, bet they didn't tell you that)

So, I know this t is just a rant and it always feels good to vocalize concerns, but I'm sure you innately understand that pointing the finger back at the bigoted parties does nothing to help.

Don't take this the wrong way, but your energy might be better spent trying to the help with the black on black crime situation (or just crime, education, healthcare, & jobs in general) than interpretations of the confederate flag and bigotry.

One of the most popular shows of our lifetime is about an American school teacher with cancer who can't afford treatment, so he resorts to drug dealing. I can't think of a more obvious statement about the history of our healthcare system.

I agree but it still pisses me off that their is bigotry out there that think sexism and racism goes ONE way and not the other.

It bothers me that sexism, racism, and homosexuality are still topics of discussion in 2015. I wonder when and if humanity can move beyond it.

//edit. Found an interesting article from the CDC. Deaths by race (all causes) starts on page 11.

 

[Euchale]

I wonder when and if humanity can move beyond it.

Never. Sadly.
Or at least not as long as there are people who say stupid things and then when people correct them, they say:"You are X" where X is sexism, racism, and so on. Once this is not happening anymore we will finally be able to takle the problem with real sexism, racism etc.

 

[Baldoraxx]

I wonder when and if humanity can move beyond it.

Sadly probably never but it's to the point now that it is so lopsided the scales are touching the grounds right now and free speech is being threatened, which is part of the point of my rant.

And yes, this is a rant where I am coming to get my anger out but who is to say I am not doing what I can to help? Just because I am voicing my opinion on the matter doesn't mean I am sitting with my thumb up my ass (General statement here in the south for someone who is a lazy fuck)

 

[Keleynal]

Given that there isn't a single vice that humanity has ever eradicated, bigotry and racism are here to stay. But that doesn't mean they have to be institutionalized or accepted by a culture as a norm.

Slavery was institutionalized racism, and the racism was so severe that it persisted being institutionalized for many years until Constitutional Ammendments, protests, and organizations like the NAACP were able to get rid of them. There is no organization for Caucasian people because so far, we haven't needed one (the KKK disagrees). The reason we have affirmative action, government programs, and special organizations for individuals of color is because that is what was necessary to balance the scales. They were brave to stand against the institutionalized racism and I'm very glad that they won.

Now that racism is no longer socially acceptable and we are a couple generations removed from slavery, the role of these many programs and institutions has become more to maintain the ground that they have gained. In some cases, it seems that their zeal for promoting equality has overshot the goal and now they are engaged in seeking advantages or looking for new fights. It's human nature to hang onto wealth and power once you have it. A lot of people have become justly famous or well compensated for their work on behalf of victims. Some have become so invested in racism, there's no way they could declare victory without destroying their livelihood.

Again, I don't think racism is dead, and I don't think there is no longer a need for groups like the NAACP. I just think that there's too much rush to yell racism when a person of color is involved in something.

In this specific instance, it is about racism. The guy was trying to start a race war, and he targeted that church specifically because it was filled with people of dark skin tone. However, that doesn't mean that suddenly there's a lot more racism going on than we thought or that people are more racist today than they were yesterday. People are justifiably upset. They want justice and maybe a little revenge, so they are looking to take that out on something bigger because punishing one idiot just isn't satisfying enough.

So now the Confederate flag is being targeted. I get what Baldoraxx was saying about it being a symbol of Southern pride. I also see the Confederate flag as standing for alot of the good things about the South. Individual rights, state rights, and local pride should be championed and celebrated.

However, like most symbols, it doesn't mean the same thing to everyone. Like it or not, the Union Jack was flown over the troops whose victory would have preserved slavery for at least a while longer. For many, especially those whose ancestry includes former slaves, it's impossible to see the flag and not remember that dark time. In their minds, it is a symbol of institutionalized racism that has been held over. Some people who are still racist have also adopted the Confederate flag as a symbol. You could say that they are wrong to do so, but I'm just saying that there people on both sides of the issue, victims and oppressors, that view that flag as a racist symbol. It doesn't matter if they are wrong in thinking that way. Perception is reality, and in this case, I think their perception is entirely reasonable and logical even though I don't share it with them to the same degree.

Does such a symbol belong in front of public institutions? I don't think it does. The shooting incident didn't turn people against the flag or change their views on it. It simply galvanized them into action. I think the governor had been wanting to remove the flag but wasn't sure how to address it with so much divided sentiment. Then this tragedy occurred and the opportunity came. Bravo, I say. That's leadership- when you recognize the time is right to accomplish something difficult and get it done cleanly. I think it was overdue, but given that I hold the Southern ideal of states' rights, it was for the state to decide when the time was right. The state has now decided, ironically upholding one of the ideals of the Confederacy while removing the flag.

Then Amazon, and Walmart, and other random people jumped on the bandwagon, and now we are in crazy town. I don't think it's about racism for them. If it were, they never would have carried those products to begin with. No, this is simply because they recognized a critical mass- they could generate more profit pleasing people by removing the products than they would get for selling the products. And that's capitalism, another American ideal that I hold dear.

So don't worry about the crazy people yelling their crazy things. As far as I can tell, the country is working in a way that both Grant and Lee would approve.

 

[Baldoraxx]

Then Amazon, and Walmart, and other random people jumped on the bandwagon, and now we are in crazy town.

Funny thing about this......They still sell Swaztikas.

I like the reasonable and argumentative approach that you bring to the table. I can agree on some points and some points I can also disagree with. I still think that it is a states right on the flags flown over the states buildings including the Confederate flag just like the "states" flag is flown there.

Like I say with everything, feelings are going to get hurt no matter what anybody does. "OMG That guy is drinking Dasani water, that reminds me of the time I fell down and my mother used Dasani water to clean my bruise, it burned so bad. Every time I see Dasani water I just want it to get removed from stores and banned from the country." See my point? Very silly if you ask me. The same thing is happening right now in America to the flag that Southerners hold pride in. Not for racist views which the MSM brainwashes people into thinking.

 

[Keleynal]

Funny thing about this......They still sell Swaztikas.[\quote]
Again, that's capitalism. Right now, they aren't worried about losing business over those, nor do they think they will earn enough points by removing them. It'd be a waste to remove them now when no one would notice.

I like the reasonable and argumentative approach that you bring to the table. I can agree on some points and some points I can also disagree with. I still think that it is a states right on the flags flown over the states buildings including the Confederate flag just like the "states" flag is flown there.

Like I say with everything, feelings are going to get hurt no matter what anybody does. "OMG That guy is drinking Dasani water, that reminds me of the time I fell down and my mother used Dasani water to clean my bruise, it burned so bad. Every time I see Dasani water I just want it to get removed from stores and banned from the country." See my point? Very silly if you ask me. The same thing is happening right now in America to the flag that Southerners hold pride in. Not for racist views which the MSM brainwashes people into thinking.

That first part is about state rights, and the second part is individual rights. Neither of which are being violated or infringed on in the current situation.

The state gets decide what flag to fly in front of their courthouse. State flag, national flag, Confederate flag, McDonald's flag... whatever they want to do. For many years, the state considered it appropriate to fly the Confederate flag. Now the state (ie the elected officals) have decided that it's not appropriate. That's not a bad thing. That's government working as our founder's intended. You may not like the result, but the process is sound.

As for stores, they are not being told by government to remove those items. That would be 100% un-American in my opinion. But as private enterprises, they have the right to sell or not sell any legal items they want to for any or no reason at all. It's still legal for private citizens and businesses to buy, sell, possess, and display Confederate flags, and I hope it stays that way.

As for the last part about the person and the Dasani water. That does sound ridiculous, but maybe because I've never had an abusive uncle shove a bottle of Dasani up my ass. If I had been violated in such a way, I might feel very different about Dasani (I think your frivolous example cheapens the real feelings that people have after experiencing true racism). My opinion and feelings would not be wrong, and my passion to see Dasani gone forever would be understandable, if stilll viewed as unreasonable by many. I don't fault anyone for having a strong opinion against the Confederate flag. How can I? It's just an opinion. I also don't fault them for wanting to take action. If you believe in something, shouldn't you try to take action?

Should it actually be removed though? That's a question for democracy. Which is also great about America. We get to debate these things, ridiculous or otherwise and decide as a group how to proceed. We don't always get it right, but the system we have in place works more than it fails.

 

[Passage]

"
Southern historian Gordon Rhea further wrote in 2011 that:

It is no accident that Confederate symbols have been the mainstay of white supremacist organizations, from the Ku Klux Klan to the skinheads. They did not appropriate the Confederate battle flag simply because it was pretty. They picked it because it was the flag of a nation dedicated to their ideals: 'that the negro is not equal to the white man'. The Confederate flag, we are told, represents heritage, not hate. But why should we celebrate a heritage grounded in hate, a heritage whose self-avowed reason for existence was the exploitation and debasement of a sizeable segment of its population?[43]"​

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_Confederate_States_of_America#Controversy​

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Both the swastika and battle cross have been defamed through appropriation. Mayhaps we should campaign against their use by supremacist organizations instead?​

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There are other Southern Flags that locals can take pride in. This one for example:​

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If Dasani had hurt/killed millions of people with after-effects felt more than a century later, that might be a good comparison.​

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(NSFW)​

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Spoiler

 

[Baldoraxx]

A "select few" decided to use it as grounds for hate, it does not mean you take the entire thing as a whole and bias stereotype the entire flag. If a thug robbed me next week, should I look at these people from now on in a different way because of one or a few peoples actions? I think not. Yes, there was a few things done in the name of this confederate flag that stained it's name. People used Jesus name to further their deeds and commit horrible crimes but I still worship him because of who he is, not because of what people have done in his name. You can't single out an idea, a flag, just because of few delirious people who needed medical attention decide to go on a rampage "in the name" of a confederate flag.

 

[Euchale]

should I look at these people from now on in a different way because of one or a few peoples actions?

Would you have a weird feeling if a mosque would be build in your neighborhood? And I mean, not what you would say officially, but what you would think inside?

 

[Baldoraxx]

Would you have a weird feeling if a mosque would be build in your neighborhood? And I mean, not what you would say officially, but what you would think inside?

Our country was built on "Freedom OF religion", not "Freedom FROM Religion", I stand for what our country was founded on, I have no problem with it.

EDIT: Some people forget this statement above^

 

[Keleynal]

A "select few" decided to use it as grounds for hate, it does not mean you take the entire thing as a whole and bias stereotype the entire flag. If a thug robbed me next week, should I look at these people from now on in a different way because of one or a few peoples actions? I think not. Yes, there was a few things done in the name of this confederate flag that stained it's name. People used Jesus name to further their deeds and commit horrible crimes but I still worship him because of who he is, not because of what people have done in his name. You can't single out an idea, a flag, just because of few delirious people who needed medical attention decide to go on a rampage "in the name" of a confederate flag.

I understand the point you are trying to make, Baldo, but when you say it this strongly, it sounds like you are trying to rewrite history. The Confederate flag was a rallying point for slave supporters and later for many groups that favored discrimination. We aren't talking just a few people here. This is thousands of people over the span of many decades. To say that all racists are insane to marginalize them is pushing it. The flag's reputation as a symbol of hate is well deserved. That's not to say it can't be redeemed, but it would be an uphill battle.

 

[Crake]

Our country was built on "Freedom OF religion", not "Freedom FROM Religion", I stand for what our country was founded on, I have no problem with it.

EDIT: Some people forget this statement above^

I probably shouldn't get into this debate but.. freedom of religion also includes being free from subjugation to other's religions. For example, if a court house had a giant Kuran outside of it I'm sure the people that are up in arms when someone wants to remove a bible or other such christian lore from state property would flip camps immediately and be outraged. Historically Christians have enjoyed dominance in our government and as an atheist I am constantly reminded that this is a Christian country. I am told to proclaim that we are one nation 'under God' and other such things that go against what I believe, it's easy to made to feel like the country is pretty biased.. which it is. You need to understand that this bias exists before I can really take any argument seriously.

I'm not saying you are intentionally doing anything to wrong anyone with your beliefs, I'm just saying you should try to understand where others come from. The confederate flag has been used by hate groups as part of their philosophy and when your government displays that same symbol it is hard not to feel like the system doesn't have your best interest in mind. Regardless of intention, you need to try to understand what it's like to live in a country that often seems to undermine your group and to be in that world every day. Don't take for granted that you are part of the dominant culture. Obviously people take things to the extreme on both sides, and there comes a point where people need to check themselves, but as it stands this country feels very unbalanced to me.

Edit: Just got off a 12 hour shift so hopefully this is coherent, would be down to discuss more once I have some sleep logged.

Edit Edit: Don't think anything I said deserves a face plam, just basing this off of my experience growing up and some of the issues I've had to face.

 

[Keleynal]

Would you have a weird feeling if a mosque would be build in your neighborhood? And I mean, not what you would say officially, but what you would think inside?

I remember the controversy when people wanted to build a mosque near Ground Zero after 9/11. I still don't think it was wrong to build it, but I can understand that the timing made people feel very uncomfortable.

 

[Baldoraxx]

I probably shouldn't get into this debate but.. freedom of religion also includes being free from subjugation to other's religions. For example, if a court house had a giant Kuran outside of it I'm sure the people that are up in arms when someone wants to remove a bible or other such christian lore from state property would flip camps immediately and be outraged. Historically Christians have enjoyed dominance in our government and as an atheist I am constantly reminded that this is a Christian country. I am told to proclaim that we are one nation 'under God' and other such things that go against what I believe, it's easy to made to feel like the country is pretty biased.. which it is. You need to understand that this bias exists before I can really take any argument seriously.

I'm not saying you are intentionally doing anything to wrong anyone with your beliefs, I'm just saying you should try to understand where others come from. The confederate flag has been used by hate groups as part of their philosophy and when your government displays that same symbol it is hard not to feel like the system doesn't have your best interest in mind. Regardless of intention, you need to try to understand what it's like to live in a country that often seems to undermine your group and to be in that world every day. Don't take for granted that you are part of the dominant culture. Obviously people take things to the extreme on both sides, and there comes a point where people need to check themselves, but as it stands this country feels very unbalanced to me.

Edit: Just got off a 12 hour shift so hopefully this is coherent, would be down to discuss more once I have some sleep logged.

Should I hate all athiests based on the Military one who push their agenda so far as to RUIN peoples lives? Oh yeah it has happened because some people don't know what "FREEDOM OF RELIGION" means. I can downright hate athiests for the things they have done but you know what, GOD has given me love in my heart to forgive those who have wronged me.

When you calm down and rationalize I will be more than happy to discuss with you. Till then, Bye.[DOUBLEPOST=1435325130,1435325043][/DOUBLEPOST]

The Confederate flag was a rallying point for slave supporters and later for many groups that favored discrimination.

Please point out this for me. Yes, it was a MINOr point in their ideals but the American flag flew with slavery in mind as well. Should we take that down now?

 

[Crake]

Should I hate all athiests based on the Military one who push their agenda so far as to RUIN peoples lives? Oh yeah it has happened because some people don't know what "FREEDOM OF RELIGION" means. I can downright hate athiests for the things they have done but you know what, GOD has given me love in my heart to forgive those who have wronged me.

When you calm down and rationalize I will be more than happy to discuss with you. Till then, Bye.

Again, I spoke to extremes on both sides. There are militants in every camp, and both sides have done wrong at some time.

I don't want to argue who is better or worse, that is not the point I am trying to make. If you don't think Christians have ruined any lives I'm not sure what to tell you. I think you are in a defensive position and your knee jerk reaction is to reply this way. I do disagree with your apparent definition of religious freedom, however.[DOUBLEPOST=1435325328,1435325215][/DOUBLEPOST]To put it more overtly, freedom of religion in a PRIVATE setting vs. display of religion from our governing bodies.

Edit: Just to expand, I also never said anything about hating all of any group.