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Lets agree to be unfair

Keleynal

Jesus Freak
I hate when people say, "That's not fair!" Fairness does not actually exist. It is a child's concept of how the universe should work and has no place among mature adults.

Cries of "Unfair!" most commonly arise in MMOs immediately after loot distribution. Whoever thinks they should have gotten loot, plays the "Unfair" card and proceeds to list the reasons they should have received the loot. Maybe they have a point; maybe they don't. It doesn't matter at they point because they are arguing from a position that doesn't exist.

Perfect fairness would mean that the same rules are applied to everyone, everywhere, all the time. Not only would people need to be treated equally; they would have to be treated exactly the same. There lies the whole problem, as soon as you treat everyone the same, it stops bing fair from someone's perspective.

Here's an example: 2 tanks have been raiding with a group for the same amount of time. They are both main tanks with equal armor and stats. However, one of them dies twice as much as the other because they have a harder time managing cool downs. As a result, progress has been much slower than everyone likes and there is talk of replacing the poorer tank as soon as a replacement can be found. A drop occurs that both have need for. Would it really be fair for the bad tank to get the gear? Isn't it in everyone's best interest for the better tank, which will be with the group longer, to get the gear? But can you fault the bad tank that much if they are truly trying their best? They are your friend, doesn't that matter?

Guilds get through this dilemma by establishing loot rules and systems. But no system is perfect. Even one that is simple enough to understand, yet complex enough to handle most situations will encounter situations where someone will believe they are being treated unfairly. Not maybe, not if, it WILL happen, and it's one of the most common problems that split groups.

Can we agree that fairness is an unattainable idea? The most we can hope for is that we strive for justice, the administering of proper punishment or reward. Justice has room for common sense and mercy, fairness does not. Fairness is tyranny. No one would like fairness if it were ever actually applied.

I'd like to see this community agree on 3 things:
1. We will not be fair
2. We will make mistakes
3. We will deal with it like mature adults

This extends beyond MMOs and to all our dealings with each other. You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one.
 
Yes it should be unfair... and that being said, I should get ALL THE LOOTS /allthethings

Just kidding.
 
Like most things, 'fairness' is both a subjective term and a continuum rather than a false dichotomy of 'fair' or 'unfair'.

Perhaps a better phrasing might be 'While we shall endeavor to be fair, we will not appear be fair to everyone'. Anything else suggests there is no effort being made in that regard.
 
Ignoring guild/community politics, I've always tried to be as fair as possible in my own terms in any social situation. It's a moving target per the person and circumstance, and as always should be evaluated as such. I like to think I'm as fair as possible in equality and all that jazz.

I do try to hold fairness as often as possible in TAB situations. That has, also, gotten me into trouble in the past by not just "deciding" something and trying to be the good guy and being taken advantage of. Sometimes, shit will have to be as is without the diplomacy for the sake of easiness and to prevent the "unfair drama". But at the same time, I hate being that guy. I want everyone to be happy. But that's just impossible and, only just recently have I learned this.

There should always be a bit of logic behind decisions. That's the saving grace of this "fair" discussion. Being able to logically decipher the best possible situation against all others, and realize the benefits and penalties. Even the most logical decision may have a negativity to it, but still needs to be made as such.
 
I make no attempt to be fair. Life isn't fair, so why should I pretend to be? I do try to be consistent and logical, but often the most logical thing to do is not the fair thing.
 
I make no attempt to be fair. Life isn't fair, so why should I pretend to be? I do try to be consistent and logical, but often the most logical thing to do is not the fair thing.
Because human society demands the illusion of fairness, you must appear to be fair on occasion. Protocol demands that, and it becomes the logical thing to do to keep up appearances and avoid the bad side effects of people believing you to be unfair.
 
I think it comes down to social interactions. Just like my argument about selfishness, it really comes down to social interactions imo. To survive and thrive in a society you have to find the middle ground. There will be no absolutes in practice.

There will never be ultimate fairness, but there is lots of acceptable degrees of fairness in the middle ground. Hard decisions must be made and that is why people choose to have a select few in charge. Most people would try to have those who make those hard decisions be as fair as possible within the rule structure set down.

No life is not fair. We try as a society to make people feel bad about it as little as possible.
 
Here's an example: 2 tanks have been raiding with a group for the same amount of time. They are both main tanks with equal armor and stats. However, one of them dies twice as much as the other because they have a harder time managing cool downs. As a result, progress has been much slower than everyone likes and there is talk of replacing the poorer tank as soon as a replacement can be found. A drop occurs that both have need for. Would it really be fair for the bad tank to get the gear? Isn't it in everyone's best interest for the better tank, which will be with the group longer, to get the gear? But can you fault the bad tank that much if they are truly trying their best? They are your friend, doesn't that matter?


The one with the higher dice wins. Chance is pretty much a fair thing and still better than just giving it to someone, while denying it for the other Person.

On the topic of fairness: You are right about the world being not fair. But this is no excuse to be unreasonable. Ending an argument with:"Well, life is not fair" is not the way to go in my opinion. Even though I would not judge somebody else if they go around like that. It´s their conscience not mine.
 
Fairness is not relative. The universe inherently unfair but that is not reason for us to be so. In one guild i was in we had a player with 1 hand and one who was in a hospital DIEING of cancer. one was an objectively worse player and one would have been a waste of gear cause a dead player cant raid. By your logic we should exclude them based on them holding the raid back. Nope sorry, not gonna roll with that. Everyone is painted with the same brush. Everyone gets a fair chance. The universe being unfair is more reason to be fair not less.
It's interesting that you have an absolute definition of fairness, but are relative and subjective about right and wrong.

If 99/100 people agree that the fair thing is to let everyone roll, regardless, but one person disagrees and says that's not fair, does it make that one person wrong?
 
It's interesting that you have an absolute definition of fairness, but are relative and subjective about right and wrong.

If 99/100 people agree that the fair thing is to let everyone roll, regardless, but one person disagrees and says that's not fair, does it make that one person wrong?
You can please some of the people some of the time, but you can't please all of the people all of the time. Nothing will ever be perfectly fair. We put up a stink about fairness as a means of personal gain or as a gain for someone else on our behalf. Asking someone to be fair is asking someone to grant you or someone else or a group of someones some kind of benefit, either by directly benefiting yourself or by removing a benefit someone else has. It's kind of just like a survival tool we use to try to get more or to give someone else less. I'm not really sure how to explain this concept better but hopefully you get the gist of it. This statement isn't perfectly all inclusive of the concept of fairness.

Yes, life is not fair. The word 'fair' signifies an attempt to level the playing field, but can often be used to create more 'unfairness.' I could go on for days about hiring practices and how they are absolutely not 'fair' even though the groups advocating for them seem to claim they are. Is it really fair that female firefighters have a lower standard of physical fitness? Really? So I'm told, as a male, that I have to lift a certain amount of weight along with a slew of other physical requirements as a MINIMUM to do the job, but for some reason women don't? Does hose weigh less if you are a woman? Are the people you need to pull out suddenly 40 lbs lighter because you are a woman? It's not fair. Nothing is ever perfectly fair.
 
Logic with a hint of ethics/morals within the rule set of social norms. Is that what truly defines a person's "fairness"?
 
Right and Wrong are a Sliding scale of social, societal and personal Impact. Fairness is an application of the rules. Something can be Fair wile also being Right, wrong, both or neither.

I see, so is it possible for a rule to be unfair?
 
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