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GW2 [Podcast #14] Guild Wars 2 "The End Game"

tr1age

tr1age

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The members of http://alttabme.com came together during this weekly podcast to talk about "The End Game"

Summary: The game is based around skill and that is an awesome mechanic. Pieces of exotic gear are there just to help you make the fights a little bit easier and manageable but right now the level of skill required for the end game dungeons is not scaling. It is staying at one level of difficulty. The mechanics for certain monsters and bosses are "one hit" or "run around in circles". So you take that and a very broken final boss fight for the conclusion of the game and you get a very anti climactic "end game" almost to the point of Mass Effect 3. Guild Wars 2 removes all the things that make other MMO's feel bad for this day and age, such as grinding etc, but it never actually added something new to the mix for longevity. In this podcast we talk about our experiences with the end game and how we feel there is a void in the game that needs to be filled, so that you want to log in.

Tell us how your guild or friends are doing without that "pull" to being them in game. We would love to hear your thoughts!

The questions answered here are some of the top questions we get during our live streams at http://alttabme.com/liveand these forums!

We are live Mondays @ 5:15 EST : http://alttabme.com/live

If you wish to submit questions for next weeks podcast for please feel free to post on the forums.

Link to MP3 Download can be found in the summary on Youtube.
 
Yeah, I did Zhaitan with some randoms early in the game, and it was kind of a disappointing fight; I think it IS unintended the way it works right now, considering what it felt like.

As for the Undead on the boat, it's of these things I have to say I actually don't remember the nightmare of dying endlessly; I was playing my Elixir Gun/Flamethrower/AoE knockback build with a very support oriented feel to it, and we had a really, REALLY good AoE DPS group to back it up. I just recall the aggravation of not being able to do anything to the dragons around the ship.

Also, LOL@PENISLESS ZHAITAN. I laughed so hard.

Gear-wise, I think if you really want to put together a good set of Exotics for EVERY possible build, it gets really costly! I don't know if the game is meant to be played with a single "do-it-all" build; for that reason, I think you should be able to purchase "respec tokens" from your class vendor in order to refund trait points on the fly, and thus get to play differently in various situations.

Perhaps even add a wardrobe to keep different sets of gear (Carrion/Berserker/Rampager, etc.). Perhaps even add "Elite" difficulty for some dungeons.

/shrug

Also: PvP! So much to learn there!

PS: Maybe they expect you to play all builds of all classes "for the sake of it" ? I don't know. I'm a really curious player when it comes to different potential builds; in that regard, I wish the dungeons were "harder" (read: required more planned teamwork) to allow for multiple runs to feel entirely different from one another. I'd like PvE that has the tactical aspect of PvP.
 
And already, people in the comments are missing the point. "omg you just want everything handed to you" - No, they want the final boss to be hard, not easy. Pay attention. (This is why I disable YouTube comments with Stylish. #watch-comments{display:none !important;} , you are my best friend.)

I haven't played it yet, and frankly, I'm a little worried. Hopefully they can retune the difficulty as needed (they've done so in the past), but the Zhaitan fight sounds fundamentally flawed.
 
Oh people love jumping on us on youtube. That's just youtube. No worries. We get more positive than negative, so it's a win in the end :)
 
Threshka Oregrinder said:
PS: Maybe they expect you to play all builds of all classes "for the sake of it" ? I don't know. I'm a really curious player when it comes to different potential builds; in that regard, I wish the dungeons were "harder" (read: required more planned teamwork) to allow for multiple runs to feel entirely different from one another. I'd like PvE that has the tactical aspect of PvP.
Click to expand...

This was the first dungeon I felt like each pull all I had to do was run in and charge. No thinking, no planning, just charge.

And we would be fine.
 
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Good podcast, agreed with a lot if not all of it. I think the problem is basically that ANet removed the gear treadmill and stat focus in general that people hate on in other MMOs, but, like you guys said, they didn't actually replace it with anything else. Every MMO has exploration and small dungeons everyone can hop into, but they've also got that addictive and shitty as balls treadmill to keep people coming back as the main focus. GW2 lacks that focus.

Set your own goal, because the game sure won't, and then ask yourself why. Why grind out that dungeon set? Why get that Legendary? Why max every crafting profession? Why go to Orr at all? Why explore everything? Some people will find a reason (I like the look of the set, I like actually exploring, I like the challenge, I like defending the same outpost forever, etc) but a lot of people probably won't. And every goal you set will probably be a solitary journey, seeing as chances are your buddies that are online when you are have a different goal altogether.

I've got full lvl 78 Exotic Berserker gear transmuted with the look I want, and for now I'm done. I could go for lvl 80 gear, but it's such a ridiculously small difference that I don't see the point. Overworld mobs already die so fast I can just run straight at them and they'll be dead by the time we meet in the middle. Sometimes I think about going for my Legendary, but then I see what I'd need to do to get it and I just log off. I could take it slow, but that singular carrot is so far off and with their anti-farm code and other shenanigans I just wouldn't ever feel like I made at least some progress on any given day. Doesn't help that it's a Sniper Rifle, and Engineers use their Rifles like a shotgun. None of the dungeon sets look good to me, and the next patch should help with the grindiness but I still won't want them. And I could care less about Achievement hunting. So I play the TP and run circles around the Mystic Forge checking gchat. I wish I could get into exploring, because that should keep me busy for quite some time, but I just can't. And that's on me, don't get me wrong, but if you don't like to explore or grind you'd best hope you love PvP and getting zerged from behind by an invisible army because the game will only render so many people.

Anyway, /whine. Still a great game at twice the price if my /age is any indication. But for now I'm taking a break, and I can, which is another amazing thing.
 
Oh, of course. It still sets my teeth on edge when people are wrong on the internet, though.
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Yeah, more so when you can't speak to them right as you wished you could to correct them/discuss with them.

Ah well.

Honestly, as Daniel Fortesque pointed out, the game demands that you set yourself your own goals. I've been wishing for exactly that type of game for a long time now, and I'm getting exactly that. My only gripe with the game as it stands is the lack of "need" for a group outside of dungeons. Either it's zerg-farming events or solo farming them; rarely do I ever get to do them with a few people only. I wish, somehow, that you could instance the world with your party. Some sort of "party-wide" instance. I don't know, though.

At the moment I'm merely building various gear sets to play around with when the situation presents itself; as much as I like my dual-pistol Condition damage build, I'd love to be able to be just as efficient with a Pistol/Shield build. Lots of things I have in mind that I actually have to gear for; I'm a silly min-maxer in PvE, so that's why I'm actually kept busy for the time being, and likely for a while since I'm also a build-swapper. If I were to stick with one build only, though, I'd be done with the gear treadmill already; what I'd like to put together, at some point, is a "PvE team" with a lot of build testing for synergistic runs!

Some kind of...sPvE ? =D​
 
I've had so many mixed emotions with the "end-game" of GW2. I haven't even tried to do the Zhaitan fight. I read before launch that the fight wasn't ready and wouldn't be ready for launch and in the wake of so many post-launch bugs, I'm assuming it's been simmering on the backburner awhile. I've heard that they are working on it from Will, one of the devs on that fight, so I've stalled my personal story and am waiting patiently for the fix to come. I feel awful for those who have done the fight and finished their stories only to be left utterly unfulfilled by the fight in it's current state.

Zhaitan fight aside.. there's a lot of things worrying me. I love this game, I want it to succeed more than anything but like you guys said, there's nothing that pulls me to log in. There's still stuff I want to do on Raene - still need 100% World Map, still need Legendary, my tailoring isn't 400 yet.. there's so much to do and see still but I don't feel like I -need- to log in and do those things. Most of the time I log in to play with friends and they're not often on for the same reason. As I'm currently without a guild I don't have any reason to WvW, PvP or do dungeons either as it benefits no one but me and that's just not my idea of fun.

I have no idea what my future is with GW2 but I'm definitely not going to walk away from it. At this point I don't know what it needs.. as much as I despise the gear treadmill as it invites the line of thinking that your gear is all that matters, not how skilled you are.. is that really what gives an MMO longevity? Everquest 2 had more than the gear grind that kept me busy for the last three years after I left WoW. Collections, mounts, trophies, houses and house items, guild halls, crafting quests and dungeons, player-made dungeons.. so much to do. If GW2 could take lessons from this, implement titles, and perhaps Shiny collections like EQ2 and Rift.. things like that would start to give people the drive to play and feel like they were accomplishing more than just looking pretty (which is important!). Also mounts. I reallllly want a mount now that I'm 80. If they don't implement mounts in the near future I'm getting a saddle and riding a Quaggan around. Don't they just look like they could be ridden all hunched over and cute? *LOVVVE* *cough* I mean, uh... moving on!

In the end, it's still too early to tell how Arena Net will improve the game to make the "end-game" better but I will definitely be around to see. It has so much potential and enough good points to make up for most of it's flaws.
 
In reply to Raene: GW2 doesn't necessarily have to look at other games to take lessons, a number of the things you've listed were already in their first Guild Wars game: Guild halls, titles, trophies, collections, more dungeons - these are all things we can look forward to in GW2.

Though I wouldn't get my hopes up for mounts!
 
I never played GW1 actually. I had no idea they had any of that previously. My only experience with the title and company has been through GW2, hehe. That gives me lots more hope for the future then!
 
Raene Droppe said:
I never played GW1 actually. I had no idea they had any of that previously. My only experience with the title and company has been through GW2, hehe. That gives me lots more hope for the future then!
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Yea, having played GW1 is what's keeping my spirits high.
GW1's "Hall of Monuments" was basically a trophy room for weapon/armor/companion/minipet collections.
Getting titles was similar to the current achievements system, once you'd reached the highest tier, you unlocked a title that you could display underneath your character's name for everyone else to see.
Guild halls were there right from the start (if I remember correctly), and the fact that they're yet to be added to GW2 is just another piece of evidence that the game's released might have been a bit rushed.
Additional dungeons were added with content updates, and I believe Anet has already mentioned that they're planning to add more dungeons to GW2 over time.
 
I have to say, I'm really disappointed with the end game. GW2 is pretty much an incredible casual game that seems to focus on alt-building and PvP. I do like quite a few things, the combat, graphics, and dye system amongst the best. That said, this game is quickly going the way of SWToR and Rift for me, it's just way too easy, and the end game is lackluster/non-existant. I'd also agree with Tr1age that it's an incredibly anti-social game. I've been in a ton of PUG groups, I'm not sure I really got to know anyone. You work together with people, sure, but there is no community building outside of within the guild.

I'll keep playing from time to time, the guild stuff in particular is fun, but I have little desire left to play this game. I'm still looking for the next Everquest, or at this point, I'll even take an Everquest 2/Vanguard. The shift to overly casual MMOs is just killing me, and I'll forever hate Warcraft for starting that snowball rolling.

I'm not really sure what Anet can add that will make GW2 into what I was hoping it might be.
 
Mat'hir Uth Gan said:
I have to say, I'm really disappointed with the end game. GW2 is pretty much an incredible casual game that seems to focus on alt-building and PvP. I do like quite a few things, the combat, graphics, and dye system amongst the best. That said, this game is quickly going the way of SWToR and Rift for me, it's just way too easy, and the end game is lackluster/non-existant. I'd also agree with Tr1age that it's an incredibly anti-social game. I've been in a ton of PUG groups, I'm not sure I really got to know anyone. You work together with people, sure, but there is no community building outside of within the guild.

I'll keep playing from time to time, the guild stuff in particular is fun, but I have little desire left to play this game. I'm still looking for the next Everquest, or at this point, I'll even take an Everquest 2/Vanguard. The shift to overly casual MMOs is just killing me, and I'll forever hate Warcraft for starting that snowball rolling.

I'm not really sure what Anet can add that will make GW2 into what I was hoping it might be.
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You can define "casual" as one of two ways, from my perspective:
- Excessively easy
or
- Not very time-consuming

GW2, as far as I'm concerned, is of the second type. I don't like grinds, and the game suits me fine; there are grinds within the game, but they're not mandatory in order for you to progress. You can PvP at the highest levels of play right off the bat, albeit you would likely need a lot more time invested to ACHIEVE the highest skill levels.

PvE-wise, it takes very little for you to achieve the best stats in-game, but the "special" status in this game is related to appearance rather than extra damage/health. And it's fine that way; not everyone has the brains required to clear explorable modes quickly and efficiently, and people who can do it likely would be able to do it in Masterwork gear sets rather than Exotics.

Perhaps if they were to add "speed run" achievements with no rewards other than achievement points/titles, you might be compelled to refine your playstyle more? I can't play a lot due to time constraints, but when I log in I actually get to do what I want to. Not enough railroading for some people in the game, that's what I understand from most of the criticism. And when I say "railroading", I don't mean it as a derogatory term, it's merely referring to a game where you get to be told "after this step, next step is..."
 
Casual, for me, is a game that is fast to level and easy to achieve maximum stats/gear. I'm really an Everquest 1 end-all, be-all guy. I'm not sure exactly what EQ was in today's terms, but it was flawless for me. The game took a long time to level, the leveling up process was amazing and fun, elite gear you would use literally forever could be found at all level ranges, the raid fights were challenging, fun, and extremely competitive, and the world was open to explore with little direction. And pretty much every time you logged in could be the time you found the rare spawn or won the rare loot. EQ2 whiffed by changing the mechanics, but did create the best crafting, house, and guildhall system ever. I just want a game to combine those two (hopefully EQ3), while mixing in Rift's collection system, and GW2's dodge combat mechanic, dye system, graphics, and PvP.

Right now, I think GW2 is easily the best MMO going, but mostly because of the PvP. The problem for me is that, as the fellas in the podcast opined, it just doesn't make me want to log in. I hate grinds too. But, I loved the xp grind in EQ because of the community aspect, the chance for a rare spawn and elite loot, and because it was insanely fun and challenging. None of that exists for me in GW2 PvE.

Anyway, I still enjoy the game when I play. I love that it has no subscription. It's a great game to pop in for an hour here and there, hop right into some events or PvP, and have a good time. The game just doesn't grab me though, there's no addiction factor, there's no feeling that I'm missing something important if I don't log in, and my character is already as powerful as he can be...after a month of relatively casual playing.

I think this is a successful game that has introduced new concepts to the industry, but I also believe we'll look back at GW2 and see that they might have made a few fundamental missteps as well. The omission of the beloved tank and healing archtypes along with competitive raiding first amongst them.
 
Mat'hir Uth Gan said:
I think this is a successful game that has introduced new concepts to the industry, but I also believe we'll look back at GW2 and see that they might have made a few fundamental missteps as well. The omission of the beloved tank and healing archtypes along with competitive raiding first amongst them.
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Ultima Online was an EXTREMELY successful MMO NO tank or Healer class persay. Every class had the option to do every skill. That was kinda what made it unique. You could choose your "life" as a character in the world. And when you decided you wanted to change that you did.

And then you worried about skills last and the encounters 1st.

I miss that dearly and think GW2 is the closest thing to that so far in a modern day MMO.
 
tr1age said:
Ultima Online was an EXTREMELY successful MMO NO tank or Healer class persay. Every class had the option to do every skill. That was kinda what made it unique. You could choose your "life" as a character in the world. And when you decided you wanted to change that you did.

And then you worried about skills last and the encounters 1st.

I miss that dearly and think GW2 is the closest thing to that so far in a modern day MMO.
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UO was actually what introduced me to MMOs. My best friend was as addicted to that game as you could be, he ran around with a group of PK's and I couldn't pull him off of that for nothing, for years and years. He loved that game and spent pretty much his entire high school years playing it. I used to make fun of him so hard for being a nerd. And then he got into the EQ beta, and he had a few night classes at the local community college, so he'd let me come over and play it. That's when I got hooked and the rest is history. I never really played UO indepth though, but my friend swears to this day it was the best game ever created, at least in the beginning. I'm the same way with Everquest. I think it might come down to whatever game you lost your MMO virginity to. I miss early EQ dearly, but there is nothing out there that's close to what that game was right now and that really sucks for me. I think it's awesome GW2 is bringing back a little bit of UO nostaliga for you, I'd give anything for that.
 
The end game issue has been something ive actually been thinking alot about over last week or so since i hit 80 on my 1st character. Im still in altoholic mode so its not really a big issue atm but i did find myself actually looking around at what the community was saying about the game. One guy said the game sucked cuz he played 250 hours and has full exotic gear and 100% map completion and theres nothing left for him to do(also said he didnt do any dynamic events outside of starter area cuz they were all the same). Now this was just in first month but i got to thinking about the actual amount of time he spent. If this was WoW and looking back to when i actually lived on that game, i never got anything near 250hours of quality gameplay from wow in one month let alone months on end unless you included pvp. The reason is that for my $15 a month i had someone throttling what i could actually accomplish outside of loot rolls. Steamroll the raid all in one night? There goes the rest of the week sitting around in Org bsin with friends on vent wishing we could just go in and grind the damn place for gear.

In the end i think we are still in a good place. 250 hours of wow or any other game fully unlocked as gw2 is there would be tons of people that would fully complete the content. Not the content of the game and all xpacs but each xpac surely. Hell even with their lockouts theres guilds beating all content within a month every time they release something new. I feel like with a little creativity within guilds at the start in guild wars 2 that we can easily bridge the gap till next content release or whatever is planned. Even if we cant i really dont see myself going anywhere as i feel id rather pay once and not have anything locked out for me if i so desire to blast through the content. Which thankfully i havent had that urge yet as i usually do with other games. The professions alone are enough to keep me here and the fact that my first 80 has only 29% map completion gives me plenty of reason to stick around. Hell id play this game for wvwvw alone with a few tweaks here and there. I think people are so brainwashed as to what a game should be. Not saying gw2 is perfect but i feel if people really sat down and looked at how much quality time they were spending on a game that locks out content per day/week they would see its really not that much.

I actually got to 80 and put my mesmer on hold and didnt push anything endgame pve wise and have started leveling other profs so maybe my view is a little skewed. Im sure everyones leveling experience is different but my first 1-80 was spent purely leveling in zones of my level and wvwvw. Ive not done a single dungeon or spvp match yet. Hell if you guys get bored and just wanna level something new hit me up when im online and ill roll something new up as well.lol
 
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