Christian and Homosexual Stereotypes

[Keleynal]

Note- This thread has deviated almost entirely from the OP. We are still discussing stereotypes and misconceptions, but are now focusing more on Christians instead of homosexuals. Feel free to jump in about anything related without feeling obligated to read every post in it's entirety.

OP begins-

I was reading this article yesterday and it got me thinking again about the stereotypes of Christians and members of the LGBT community. In the article, an evangelical Christian decides that his homophobia is a bad thing and he is tired of it. Unfortunately, the only thing he can think of to do is pretend to be gay for a year and "immerse" himself in the culture. I'm reminded of wildlife videos where the intrepid explorer crawls into the burrow with the ocelots in hopes of being accepted into the clan. It seems that he was so far gone into his steretypes and fear that he couldn't even regard LGBTs as people who could be approached in a rational way.

I grew up in a very conservative, Christian home, and I am raising my children in a very conservative, Christian home. However, conservative plus Christian does not have to equal bigot or hater. Growing up in the 90's, homosexuality was still socially unacceptable. I didn't think about it much and I did not know anyone that was openly gay. I wouldn't say I was afraid, I just didn't think about it.

In my early 20's, I got a job as a security guard working overnight at a hotel. I became friends with the banquet manager there and would often help him set up tables and chairs even though it wasn't my job. Through our conversation, I eventually learned that he was gay and prefered to have relationships with married men because there were less strings attached for him. I was a year or two into marriage at the time, so that startled me a bit. I talked it over with my wife and I decided I would continue forming a friendship with him.

He seemed surprised when I came back. He knew that I was a Christian and had fully expected his admission to push me away. Not that he didn't like talking with me, but his experiences in the past had shown him that Christians were fearful and close minded. I tried to show him another side. We talked a lot about how we were raised and different eperiences that we'd had. I found that we were much more alike than different. I never condoned his lifestyle or said it was acceptable, but I tried to show that God's agenda and my agenda was not to make him straight, but to have a relationship with him and show him unconditional love.

Too many Christians regard homosexuality as the ultimate evil, an unforgivable sin. But that's not Biblical. Certainly, the Bible says that homosexuality is an abomination, but the Bible speaks just as strongly against lying, adultery, and immorality in general. Heterosexual immorality is no less sinful than homosexual immorality. Too many Christians look down their noses at the LGBT community and say "Thank God I'm not like THEM." It makes me sick because I know that I have been guilty of just as much or more than anyone in that lifestyle.

We Christians have cloistered ourselves for too long. Jesus did not hide from sinners, he sought them out and ate with them in their homes. He did not condemn them, but spoke the truth with compassion; He offered forgiveness and healing to the brokenhearted. I applaud the man in the article for stepping out of his comfort zone. Maybe now he'll be comfortable being himself around those that are different from him instead of shielding himself with lies.

 

[Baldoraxx]

I know how you feel, one of my good friends that i have known since middle school (so long ago) came out of the closet. My wife and i had pretty much the same discussion you did and decided we can't fault him for what his choices are. We got to know the person first before judging. I know that i shouldn't judge but it becomes hard not to. After this incident i haven't been as judgmental as before and have been more optimistic.

 

[Keleynal]

I know how you feel, one of my good friends that i have known since middle school (so long ago) came out of the closet. My wife and i had pretty much the same discussion you did and decided we can't fault him for what his choices are. We got to know the person first before judging. I know that i shouldn't judge but it becomes hard not to. After this incident i haven't been as judgmental as before and have been more optimistic.

Judging is another trap that is easy to fall into. People tend to take to extremes where either they are condemning and ridiculing everyone they see or they are open and accepting of anything and everyone to the point that they shrug off sin. Neither is the way to go.

I believe we are to be discerning, that is, to be able to distinguish right from wrong and clearly state why we believe the way we do. However, we don't take it a step farther and label them, effectively condemning them and identifying them with their sin. (ie "It was wrong to steal that candy bar." vs "You are a thief.")

I think the days of door to door evangelism are all but over. People don't want to be told by random strangers that they are in need of anything, especially not anything so personal as their religious beliefs and lifestyle. The new evangelism is relationships. Build open friendships and be an unassuming ambassador of Christ. Don't preach or lecture, just let your faith and love show naturally. As you build trust, they open up and become curious. They will invite you to speak into their lives.

This type of reaching out takes a lot of time and requires us to actually love people, something the church in America has been failing at for a long time. We prefer to hand out tracts or head out "on a mission" with Bible in hand, putting on a facade so we can feel good about trying to "win souls." I firmly believe that this is why our culture has shifted from Christian values to secular values. Not the politicians, not the liberal media, not LGBTs trying to recruit our kids (cough-paranoid delusion-cough). Those are just strawmen. We (Christians) have been the problem.

 

[NeverMore]

I happen to be a member of the LGBT community, and Baldo said that you could not fault the person in question for his choices. You made no mention of choice or lack of there of Kel, and I assume Baldo's mention was just a poor way of wording it, rather than a belief, as I assure you, I have no control over what gender I am attracted to(Or variations of said Genders[Look up Pansexual for clarification]). At one point Kel, you mention that you shouldn't take it a step further and label us and identify us with our sin. I suppose if I were a religious person I'd argue the same as some christian groups do, and say that Homosexuality isn't a sin, but I'm not, and I won't. Other than those bits, I'm fine with what you've said within this thread thus far and even agree with some of it.

 

[Baldoraxx]

There was no mistake in my wording. Homosexuality is a life choice. We can go into a huge debate but i don't want to spoil the thread. Make a new one if you want to.

 

[Keleynal]

Thanks for that, MoDSec.

I've wrestled a lot with this issue, and I feel that my views will still evolve as I discover and learn more.

I have wondered why LGBT relationships would be sinful if they were in the same context as healthy heterosexual relationships. In other words, if you are married. The few places the Bible mentions homosexuality, it seems to be unambiguously against it, regardless of context. I would like to be able to accept that married LGBT relationships are righteous, I just haven't been able to find Biblical support for it. I don't trust myself (or any other person for that matter) to make those kinds of value judgements.

I totally agree with you that you have no control over the desires that you feel. This is as true for sexual drives as it is for hunger or any other natural human need. I do not believe that desires are sinful, it's what we do with the desire that matters. I can look at a woman (or a man) that is not my wife and desire them. If I then dwell on that, fantasize about it, act upon it- now I'm getting into sin. It moved from a simple desire to a choice in thought or deed.

So I would argue that your feelings of attraction are neither good nor evil, they just are. It's every individual's job to sort out our desires and decide which are appropriate to act upon. You and I may disagree on what standard to use for that decision, but we all make value judgements and choose whether to do what we consider to be right, or disregard our value judgements and do what's wrong.

It would be wrong for me to try to hold you to a standard that you don't ascribe to. All I can do is explain my own views.

 

[NeverMore]

There was no mistake in my wording. Homosexuality is a life choice. We can go into a huge debate but i don't want to spoil the thread. Make a new one if you want to.

... I'm not going to. I won't even request proof, because it'd be counter productive. I do request however, that you do research into this subject. Extensive research.

Spoiler

Thanks for that, MoDSec.

I've wrestled a lot with this issue, and I feel that my views will still evolve as I discover and learn more.

I have wondered why LGBT relationships would be sinful if they were in the same context as healthy heterosexual relationships. In other words, if you are married. The few places the Bible mentions homosexuality, it seems to be unambiguously against it, regardless of context. I would like to be able to accept that married LGBT relationships are righteous, I just haven't been able to find Biblical support for it. I don't trust myself (or any other person for that matter) to make those kinds of value judgements.

I totally agree with you that you have no control over the desires that you feel. This is as true for sexual drives as it is for hunger or any other natural human need. I do not believe that desires are sinful, it's what we do with the desire that matters. I can look at a woman (or a man) that is not my wife and desire them. If I then dwell on that, fantasize about it, act upon it- now I'm getting into sin. It moved from a simple desire to a choice in thought or deed.

So I would argue that your feelings of attraction are neither good nor evil, they just are. It's every individual's job to sort out our desires and decide which are appropriate to act upon. You and I may disagree on what standard to use for that decision, but we all make value judgements and choose whether to do what we consider to be right, or disregard our value judgements and do what's wrong.

It would be wrong for me to try to hold you to a standard that you don't ascribe to. All I can do is explain my own views.

What got you into religion? What is it that appeals to you in it?

edit: Gotta get to bed for work later. I'll come back to this though. Maybe even do it on the phone at work (The horror!).

 

[Keleynal]

... I'm not going to. I won't even request proof, because it'd be counter productive. I do request however, that you do research into this subject. Extensive research.

It's a tough question and I understand Baldo's position, but it's not helpful to be dogmatic. It shuts down discussion and can cause hurt.

I agree with MoD. I'm definitely not closing the book on how I feel about this topic.

 

[tr1age]

Kel first off let me say, this is the first time I have seen those two words in tandem and not wanted to strangle the person who said them. This is a great and open way to write it, and I really do have respect for your exploration of the world and putting self and human improvement over outdated ideals and "just faith" but I keep reading things in here that irk me. So let me go ahead and get those out of the way...

I totally agree with you that you have no control over the desires that you feel. This is as true for sexual drives as it is for hunger or any other natural human need. I do not believe that desires are sinful, it's what we do with the desire that matters. I can look at a woman (or a man) that is not my wife and desire them. If I then dwell on that, fantasize about it, act upon it- now I'm getting into sin. It moved from a simple desire to a choice in thought or deed.

From this I get a weird double standard... You even said that the desires are not something we have control over, like hunger and basic human needs. But then you went ahead and said, in essence if one is to eat, then they are sinning. That a choice has to be made to pretend to be something other than what you are. How can one CHOOSE when it is inherent in their chemistry.

You choose not to cheat on your wife, but you chose to be with your wife. What you are saying in turn though is a gay man or woman cannot make a choice other than to pretend to be with the opposite sex to be considered "un-sinful"(word?).

I think the days of door to door evangelism are all but over. People don't want to be told by random strangers that they are in need of anything, especially not anything so personal as their religious beliefs and lifestyle. The new evangelism is relationships. Build open friendships and be an unassuming ambassador of Christ. Don't preach or lecture, just let your faith and love show naturally. As you build trust, they open up and become curious. They will invite you to speak into their lives.

This type of reaching out takes a lot of time and requires us to actually love people, something the church in America has been failing at for a long time. We prefer to hand out tracts or head out "on a mission" with Bible in hand, putting on a facade so we can feel good about trying to "win souls." I firmly believe that this is why our culture has shifted from Christian values to secular values. Not the politicians, not the liberal media, not LGBTs trying to recruit our kids (cough-paranoid delusion-cough). Those are just strawmen. We (Christians) have been the problem.

I knew a roommate who was a 'Born Again' Christian, and he used this "tactic" on everyone around him. He had done some pretty serious wrong in his life, just got back from jail, and was in an emotional state very easily manipulated. This is when someone be-friended him and he "found" Christianity. I feel as though Christianity is one of many, but one of the more prominent "drink the coolaid", "get em while they are down, young, or impressionable" religions. Where I am going with this is to be-friend someone and be an abassador of Christ as you said above, and this is how I am reading inbetween the lines, is saying, yes we can be friends, and hopefully through that you will decide to no longer be gay or make homosexual choices. By understanding Christianity you will go "Oh shit I can totally suppress this "desire" to be gay", and with Christ as my savior, who the hell cares.

When in reality this is not a CHOICE, this is a way that someone either IS or IS Not. Yes there are the exceptions where bi-sexuality comes into play, but that just further bolsters the idea that as people we are organisms of ever evolving biology. Homosexuality has been observed in over 1500 species, do animals choose to be gay? Because we are more evolved than an animal, does it mean we have to choose differently than our biological nature to essentially go to heaven.

It really frustrating that there people out there that would insist on spreading a view that would make someones life more difficult, not theirs, by requiring this proof for homosexuality. To give it validation. Why is there so much worry about homosexual people and not more worry about, and you said it yourself:

Heterosexual immorality is no less sinful than homosexual immorality.

Yet, there is never a forum topic or news article that says Heterosexuals and Christianity Stereotypes.

Anyway, Kel, I totally approve of the way you look at life, I feel like your exploration and the way you approach life is healthy. I just wanted to let ya know my issues with the subject as well



Article for those interested that is easy to read:
(http://www.boston.com/news/globe/magazine/articles/2005/08/14/what_makes_people_gay/)

Small Edit: For those quoting Leviticus, why do you always leave out this part: "Also you shall not approach a woman to uncover her nakedness during her menstrual impurity." Same "penalty" as being homosexual... =)

 

[Baldoraxx]

Well since whatever i say is gonna piss people off, and right now i could care less, i will at least put it in the right section.

I am not a perfect person, nobody is a perfect person. That is how we were created, not Darwanism. I didn't come from a damn ape. God created us and has some expectations of us. He asks us to treat our neighbor with respect, respect our parents. God has given us free-will. We control our lives. There is no chemical discrepancy in you that tells you you have to love this type of person or that. It is your own LIFE CHOICE that decides that.

For those of you who have actually read the bible i have an insert that you should read, "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."

Just warning you.

I have a right to what i believe in and voicing what i believe just like the people who respond to this have a right to express how they feel. I will read every single comment but i guarantee that you won't change how i feel on the issue just like i can't change how you feel.

So go ahead and tell me i am wrong.

 

[Baldoraxx]

And if you vote that i shall be kicked or tell me to never say anything on here again, i will respect that decision.

 

[tr1age]

First, Baldorax, understand this:

The Rants section is here to be used to do just that Rant, talk your mind.(if it isn't a personal attack of course) I feel as though what you have here is a "response" to a topic made earlier. Your title is Bible and Life yet you are just talking about homosexuality.

You are free to respond to the other topic, but as for this post it is being merged with http://alttabme.com/forum/index.php?threads/christian-and-homosexual-stereotypes.2080/ , because

A. It isn't a rant, it is a response to a previous rant.

B. We want you to participate in the conversation and not worry about being kicked from anywhere

Carry on

 

[tr1age]

For those of you who have actually read the bible i have an insert that you should read, "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."

Just warning you.

I have a right to what i believe in and voicing what i believe just like the people who respond to this have a right to express how they feel. I will read every single comment but i guarantee that you won't change how i feel on the issue just like i can't change how you feel.

So go ahead and tell me i am wrong.

Mod duties aside, I have a quote for you as well: When people quote Leviticus, why do they always leave out this part: "Also you shall not approach a woman to uncover her nakedness during her menstrual impurity." Same "penalty" as being homosexual... =) Mostly because it is way to hard to follow this one, any way you decipher it. (Oh yeah the penalty for those who do not know is death)

And MORE importantly, why are you worried so much for the homosexuals. They are not invading... nor are they a problem that effects you since you are heterosexual and doing the "right" thing.

I never understood why there is so much hatred from Christians against the gays, when they could put all that effort into bettering themselves and their goals. No need to project hatred, fear, and insecurity in someone elses choices.

Jesus did not hide from sinners, he sought them out and ate with them in their homes. He did not condemn them, but spoke the truth with compassion; He offered forgiveness and healing to the brokenhearted.

I believe this idea does more good than harm for both parties involved. I mean otherwise we could just "solve the problem" with bombs strapped to our chests or perhaps gas chambers?

 

[Baldoraxx]

That part is wrong as well and should be upheld. But no, we have 13 years olds having sex now. Wtf your penis hasn't even got hair on it yet.

They put Obama into office, California and their liberals. Did they not see what he did the past 4 years?

No need to project hatred, fear, and insecurity in someone elses choices.
Thank you for agreeing with me that it is their "choice"

Now i may not always do the "right" thing but i do try my hardest to do the "right" thing. As i said earlier, i am not a perfect person but i do try to stick to a standard that is down the "right" path.

 

[Drac]

Aha, found where my response goes.... here ya go Baldo!

That is how we were created, not Darwanism. I didn't come from a damn ape. God created us and has some expectations of us.

God has given us free-will. We control our lives.

I realize I'm nit-picking here, but I feel like you're looking for an argument/discussion, so I may as well stir the pot. In saying that, I tried to keep things very un-offensive and don't mean to be taking stabs, I'm just curious as to what/how you think.

So how does this work exactly? The notion is that God created man, who was created in order to meet some sort of expectation(s) - I don't know what these biblical expectations would be exactly, but lets just say that it is "X". So, we were created in order to meet expectation X - is the point that God has given us free will to meet the demands of X, or simply given us the free will as to whether or not we will meet the demands of X?

(I'm very secular, so feel free to dumb down the religion talk as some may go over my head. My religious roots are Judaism to boot, so I'm lacking quite a bit in the whole biblical way of thinking about things.)

Also, just to throw a whole screw into your Rant (because again, I just sort of feel like you want to discuss this more) - I was under the impression that the verse from Leviticus actually translated to something much different (Again this is my understand based on Jewish education and that of the tribe of Levi, ie, the tribesmen that Leviticus was written for). My understanding is that Levites, in opposition to the rest of 'standard' Judaic practice, trace their lineage and therefore priestliness via their fathers instead of mothers. I was always under the impression that that quote/passage was a direction against threesomes (MM+F) because a child would therefore be unable to trace their lineage, given that the mother had 2 partners simultaneously.

I've seen variations of this translation among other scripts and the word(s) that often seems to change are "as (he)". I've seen this translated numerous times in a synonymous way to "while". I hate to change a word and say "GG, I win", but if you read the quote again below (and with my, albeit limited, knowledge of Judaic traditions and those related to the tribe of Levi), it certainly points more towards a threesome and the practicality that it is important to know exactly who your father is/was.

"If a man also lie with mankind,while he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."


Again, I don't want to start an epic shit show here, just figured I'd lay down my questions/thoughts and see what you think

 

[Beerf]

Is this the section where I hop in to hate on anyone who isn't white for not being white? I mean they CLEARLY made that failure of a choice. Feel free to remove this post but correct me if I'm wrong..this is a rant section, not a hate section last I checked, no? Also, if that doesn't pertain to you, don't take offense to it please.

Edit: Tristan was supposed to be still be around to remove this but yeah.. I was more or less spinning the conversation that happened earlier where someone made the comment of people CHOOSING to be gay or lesbian. Funny how ignorant it sounds when you throw races in but somehow people think it makes sense when gay and lesbian is tossed in instead. Can someone here honestly say that people who have had their lives destroyed over the sexuality they apparently "chose" to have did so that willingly? Like what the fuck is the point? I'm all for a rant section but when people are going to start telling other people how they feel and what choices they've made with their lives.. that's a bit much and pretty fucking ignorant. Make shit up just to feel better in your own life and above others that have made these poor "decisions" in life. Other people may be able to handle it but I can't stand for ignorance. I'm sure this will be removed so there will be nothing to worry about but you really may just want to worry about yourself and get your nose out of other people's business if it truly bothers you so much.

 

[Drac]

Is this the section where I hop in to hate on anyone who isn't white for not being white? I mean they CLEARLY made that failure of a choice. Feel free to remove this post but correct me if I'm wrong..this is a rant section, not a hate section last I checked, no? Also, if that doesn't pertain to you, don't take offense to it please.

at least you're not hating on people for not being on mumble /fistshake

 

[Baldoraxx]

Aha, found where my response goes.... here ya go Baldo!




I realize I'm nit-picking here, but I feel like you're looking for an argument/discussion, so I may as well stir the pot. In saying that, I tried to keep things very un-offensive and don't mean to be taking stabs, I'm just curious as to what/how you think.

So how does this work exactly? The notion is that God created man, who was created in order to meet some sort of expectation(s) - I don't know what these biblical expectations would be exactly, but lets just say that it is "X". So, we were created in order to meet expectation X - is the point that God has given us free will to meet the demands of X, or simply given us the free will as to whether or not we will meet the demands of X?

(I'm very secular, so feel free to dumb down the religion talk as some may go over my head. My religious roots are Judaism to boot, so I'm lacking quite a bit in the whole biblical way of thinking about things.)

Also, just to throw a whole screw into your Rant (because again, I just sort of feel like you want to discuss this more) - I was under the impression that the verse from Leviticus actually translated to something much different (Again this is my understand based on Jewish education and that of the tribe of Levi, ie, the tribesmen that Leviticus was written for). My understanding is that Levites, in opposition to the rest of 'standard' Judaic practice, trace their lineage and therefore priestliness via their fathers instead of mothers. I was always under the impression that that quote/passage was a direction against threesomes (MM+F) because a child would therefore be unable to trace their lineage, given that the mother had 2 partners simultaneously.

I've seen variations of this translation among other scripts and the word(s) that often seems to change are "as (he)". I've seen this translated numerous times in a synonymous way to "while". I hate to change a word and say "GG, I win", but if you read the quote again below (and with my, albeit limited, knowledge of Judaic traditions and those related to the tribe of Levi), it certainly points more towards a threesome and the practicality that it is important to know exactly who your father is/was.

"If a man also lie with mankind,while he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."


Again, I don't want to start an epic shit show here, just figured I'd lay down my questions/thoughts and see what you think

You make some good points but the translation is Man shall not be with man and a woman shall not be with a woman. People always try to mix this translation up.

 

[Baldoraxx]

Is this the section where I hop in to hate on anyone who isn't white for not being white? I mean they CLEARLY made that failure of a choice. Feel free to remove this post but correct me if I'm wrong..this is a rant section, not a hate section last I checked, no? Also, if that doesn't pertain to you, don't take offense to it please.

Shut the fuck up. The end. No offense taken. Don't take offense

 

[Baldoraxx]

Everybodys version of what god intended for us isn't going to be the same as the first. I am not a long winded person so i won't be able to keep up with you with the long ass paragraphs lol.