It's just a game

[Euchale]

A lot of core gamers don't like these changes, though. Look what's happened to WoW. It's super accessible for casual players to see all the content, but it makes the content feel cheapened to core gamers. Sure, they did it on a more difficult setting, but if the rewards aren't commisserant, then it doesn't feel as good. Hardcore gamers want to feel exclusive and set apart by their skill and accomplishments, and then they want to brag about it. If 80% of the server has the achievement for completing the final raid and it's the same achievement on every difficulty level, they feel cheated. Hardcore gamers also don't want to pay huge amounts for a game, so devs are forced to make content for more people to bring in more money.

I think Carbine is making a lot of right moves; it remains to be seen how well it plays out and is received.

As I stated above, they are trying to find the middle ground. WoW did exactly this. They said:"We have all this wonderful content, but only 1% get´s to see it, this must change."
It would have been smart, to make the Raidfinder sets look ugly and only the hardmode sets to look awesome, this would already help a lot.

About Carbine, they are trying hard to keep it accessible, but train people as they play. This is a great idea, we will have to see how good it holds up.

 

[Simpwn]

The only reason I like things accessible via a dungeon/raid finder is because I want to see the content that everyone is talking about for myself. I don't enjoy watching the fights on Youtube, I want to experience them. Most often I'll end up playing a game where I don't know many people around and its hard to get a group. Automatic group finders really help a player like me because it'll throw me into an instance quickly and with little fuss.

I'm hoping by the time Wildstar comes around that I'll have a good group of people to experience the content with here and I won't have to worry about such conveniences.

 

[Keleynal]

The only reason I like things accessible via a dungeon/raid finder is because I want to see the content that everyone is talking about for myself. I don't enjoy watching the fights on Youtube, I want to experience them. Most often I'll end up playing a game where I don't know many people around and its hard to get a group. Automatic group finders really help a player like me because it'll throw me into an instance quickly and with little fuss.

I'm hoping by the time Wildstar comes around that I'll have a good group of people to experience the content with here and I won't have to worry about such conveniences.

I love the dungeon/raid finder, especially when it went cross-server. It was so easy to run casual groups, or have 2-3 friends and fill in the last spots easily.

I think porting you in and out of the dungeon automatically is a fine line. It's a HUGE convenience, but it destroys immersion, sense of scale, and the level of commitment. If you have to make a 10 minute run, I think you're more likely to stay and take it seriously. But the convenience of porting in and out of dungeons while leveling... so good.

 

[Daniel Fortesque]

It would have been smart, to make the Raidfinder sets look ugly and only the hardmode sets to look awesome, this would already help a lot.

I disagree, making raidfinder sets look good and hardmode sets look amazeballs is the way to go. Don't develop shitty things on purpose, don't take away stuff from casuals to make core gamers feel better. Make casuals feel good, and core gamers feel satisfied. Difficulty levels, better rewards than the already good rewards for casuals, exclusive achievements. Hand casuals a pot of gold, hang a chest of diamonds off a pole over a burning cliff infested with dragons for cores.

Anyway, on-topic. Sort of.

It used to be that gamers were a secluded bunch, and all was good. Or so we thought, before the internet all we had were magazines and our few friends. But it was never good, was it? Gamers have always been horrible to each other, from the first console wars on. We just didn't know how systemic it was, how deep it ran. But now the spotlight's on us and what we imagined to be a wonderful community of loving geeks in a harsh and unforgiving world is in fact a turd crawling with cannibalistic cockroaches on top of an even bigger turd. So yes, we need to change. Society, that is. "Gamers" is a meaningless term when everyone plays games.

Because games have joined the ranks of books and movies and art - consumed, loved and hated by all - and they can't hide anymore behind "oh but we're just a little niche group", they now need to also step up to the plate and help drive change by growing the fuck up and getting rid of their sexism and shit in games and promoting equality, fair play, all that good jazz. Because you're right, games aren't just games anymore. They're a part of everyone's lives now, and they impact everyone's lives. Getting called a faggot in-game or online is no less serious than getting called one "in real life" because we're always "in real life".

We each need to make personal changes, and hold our games and their devs to higher standards and demand they do the same for us. Because "it's just a game" as a meager defense for assholes to harass people won't go away on its own. "It's just a game" as an excuse for sexism isn't going to fix itself. Even movies are still "just movies" for many, and books are still "just books" for just as many. So yes, it's up to us.

 

[tr1age]

A lot of core gamers don't like these changes, though. Look what's happened to WoW. It's super accessible for casual players to see all the content, but it makes the content feel cheapened to core gamers. Sure, they did it on a more difficult setting, but if the rewards aren't commisserant, then it doesn't feel as good. Hardcore gamers want to feel exclusive and set apart by their skill and accomplishments, and then they want to brag about it. If 80% of the server has the achievement for completing the final raid and it's the same achievement on every difficulty level, they feel cheated. Hardcore gamers also don't want to pay huge amounts for a game, so devs are forced to make content for more people to bring in more money.

The other way to equalize the playing field for core and casuals is cash shop. Hardcore gamers can farm and kill bosses and earn their items, casuals that don't have the time or skill can buy them outright. This is called "pay to win" and it pisses core gamers off. In reality, how someone else acquires their items in no way adds or detracts to an individual's accomplishments, but gamers are obsessed with comparing themselves to others. If everyone just enjoyed the game and didn't care how others played, "pay to win" could be a viable model, but gearscore is just too damn important.

I think Carbine is making a lot of right moves; it remains to be seen how well it plays out and is received.

To say WoW is doing it wrong... would be wrong. Regardless of if the original adopters like it or not, WoW is STILL doing GREAT. And in order for it to do GREAT, they needed to implement what they did. The world is fragmented now, they patched it so the leaks stopped. WoW is not a HARDCORE game, hate to break it to everyone. WoW has ALWAYS catered to the carebears. I don't care what you say about progression and raiding, the main gameplay, setup, and ease of use was catered to new players to the genre. Thus SUCCESS and cultural acceptance.

AND HOLY SHIT OFF TOPIC...

 

[Hyomicca]

We each need to make personal changes, and hold our games and their devs to higher standards and demand they do the same for us. Because "it's just a game" as a meager defense for assholes to harass people won't go away on its own. "It's just a game" as an excuse for sexism isn't going to fix itself. Even movies are still "just movies" for many, and books are still "just books" for just as many. So yes, it's up to us.

Growing up, "it's just a game" meant that I wasn't supposed to take it more seriously than events in real life. However, social interaction is not a game. The game is the game. You can do what you want IN the game. But when it comes to talking to and interacting with real people, you're not just dealing with the game anymore.

Basically, the excuse makes no sense.

 

[tr1age]

Growing up, "it's just a game" meant that I wasn't supposed to take it more seriously than events in real life. However, social interaction is not a game. The game is the game. You can do what you want IN the game. But when it comes to talking to and interacting with real people, you're not just dealing with the game anymore.

Basically, the excuse makes no sense.

That is kinda my point. kinda. It goes deeper than that. Also Social interaction is PART of these games, everywhere. So choices and decisions have to be made with other people in mind, not just oneself, the loot, and the end goal. You literally have to deal with peoples issues, feelings, and thoughts now Specially as a guild leader, it is no longer, hand out loot fairly, it is coddle every member who thinks A sayd negative to B when in fact A mispelled word Q in sentence F that ended up making paragraph 6 look like an insult.

But subtract the people who actually are aware of social interaction, sometimes in a game you just want to not care, it is a game afterall. Is that being socially unacceptable? To type to someone via your character in a game "Fuck off I'm busy". Did you tell another virtual avatar to fuck off, should the person on the other end of the monitor tell you to fuck off back or should they consider it a pixel telling them they are busy?

Then you get to the blatant disregard to people around you... Barrens chat? The "Gay"mer... ya get my point.

So what is the acceptable interaction in an MMO? As I said originally we are moving slower than the genre is evolving. We just need to make some choices, instead of sitting idly by as we instill 90's tactics into 2013 games.

 

[Daniel Fortesque]

Growing up, "it's just a game" meant that I wasn't supposed to take it more seriously than events in real life. However, social interaction is not a game. The game is the game. You can do what you want IN the game. But when it comes to talking to and interacting with real people, you're not just dealing with the game anymore.

Basically, the excuse makes no sense.

Well. Yeah. That's... that's what I said, right?

 

[Hyomicca]

Well. Yeah. That's... that's what I said, right?

I'm just backing you up with my version.

That is kinda my point. kinda. It goes deeper than that. Also Social interaction is PART of these games, everywhere. So choices and decisions have to be made with other people in mind, not just oneself, the loot, and the end goal. You literally have to deal with peoples issues, feelings, and thoughts now Specially as a guild leader, it is no longer, hand out loot fairly, it is coddle every member who thinks A sayd negative to B when in fact A mispelled word Q in sentence F that ended up making paragraph 6 look like an insult.

But subtract the people who actually are aware of social interaction, sometimes in a game you just want to not care, it is a game afterall. Is that being socially unacceptable? To type to someone via your character in a game "Fuck off I'm busy". Did you tell another virtual avatar to fuck off, should the person on the other end of the monitor tell you to fuck off back or should they consider it a pixel telling them they are busy?

Then you get to the blatant disregard to people around you... Barrens chat? The "Gay"mer... ya get my point.

So what is the acceptable interaction in an MMO? As I said originally we are moving slower than the genre is evolving. We just need to make some choices, instead of sitting idly by as we instill 90's tactics into 2013 games.

I see what you're saying. But everyone knows it's not another avatar insulting their avatar. It's a person talking to another person (RPers being the notable exception to this). I think it comes down to the fact that people just need to learn how to behave. And I think it's only getting worse.

Adults shouldn't need babysitters. Adults should know better. But they don't. Or they don't want to and they know there's no real repercussions. Social interactions in gaming (and online in general) should follow the same guidelines we've established for ourselves over the years for interacting with people face to face. But there's no way to enforce this, so I can't really see it changing unless people team up to make offenders feel like they've actually done something wrong. Even that may have no effect.

 

[Euchale]

I see what you're saying. But everyone knows it's not another avatar insulting their avatar. It's a person talking to another person (RPers being the notable exception to this). I think it comes down to the fact that people just need to learn how to behave.

For me, if somebody insults me online, I usually take it as an insult to my avatar. I never cared, if it was targeted at me.

Adults shouldn't need babysitters. Adults should know better. But they don't. Or they don't want to and they know there's no real repercussions. Social interactions in gaming (and online in general) should follow the same guidelines we've established for ourselves over the years for interacting with people face to face. But there's no way to enforce this, so I can't really see it changing unless people team up to make offenders feel like they've actually done something wrong. Even that may have no effect.

A good way is making a Ignorelist for your guild. If somebody is socially unacceptable then you put him on the list, with the reason and a time how long the ignore should last. The last 2 things are very important, I never understood, why you should ignore someone, just because somebody tells you to do so, without any reason.
Ignore seems to work better than explanation in most cases. This is sad, I know, but It has worked a lot of times.

 

[Euchale]

Just found this and really liked it. Fits to the topic, even though it was targeted at FF6

The year was 1994. Until that time, humanity seemed a bleak existence --
why, the 20th century alone saw the world ravaged by two world wars, a tense
period known as the Cold War, and various regional conflicts. Finally, in the
latter decades of the century, a new ray of hope emerged -- the video game.
Instead of fighting and killing one another, now mankind could do so
vicariously or, if it was preferred, two could team up and do battle against
a fictional foe.

Like all forms of expression, the video game underwent many reformations
(or generations) before the recipe became "just right." Several genres of game
sprang into being: platform games, shoot-em-ups, action/adventures, sports,
puzzlers, fighting games, and RPGs. Each type of game appealed to a different
type of player or interest, and all the while advances were being made both in
capacity of games' data and complexity of the hardware used to run it. By the
early 1990's, the types of presentation that would work with a given genre
were well-established, and players could afford to specialize in a particular
genre without narrowing the field of games too greatly.

That brings us back to 1994, or, as Nintendo called it, "The year of the
cartridge." In that year, _Final_Fantasy_VI_ was released, and there was much
rejoicing. The genre was RPG; the fictional foe was the evil Emperor Gestahl,
and later, the pompous nihilist Kefka. Sure, there were other RPGs before it,
but none that struck the perfect balance of character similarity vs. diversity,
importance of storyline vs. gameplay, and plot linearity vs. non-linearity.

The depth of characters and robustness of the game engine (plus the time
investment required to fully explore the nuances of the game) made this one of
the highest-rated games in terms of replayability. Furthermore, the vivid
graphics and moving musical score made it a complete experience, not just a
game.

"But it is just a game!" I hear someone in the back say.

No, it is not just a game. In the fast-paced world where information is
old as soon as it can be emailed, a video game generally has a very small
window of time that it is considered new or exciting. For the early history of
video games that may not have been so true, but for the entire history of this
game, the internet has been a very influential medium for discussion among
players. For many fans of the series, this is still the greatest game, in spite
of the hype surrounding some of its successors. So no, it is not "just a game"
-- it is a culture.