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Organic VS Non Organic

I thought about posting this, but decided not to in case it was distracting from Tristan's endeavour.
(EDIT:Thread has been moved.)

But since we're already here, organic doesn't mean pesticide free. It means using inferior pesticides that may well be MORE harmful than conventional ones (ALWAYS wash organic produce before eating, more so than regular produce, it may have had manure on it), as organic agriculture is based on bad science and a 100+ year old farming paradigm. They grow different varieties to cope with the lack of certain pesticides/fungicides, which may taste different. Organic production is typically much less efficient than regular production, but commands a higher market price.
 
I thought about posting this, but decided not to in case it was distracting from Tristan's endeavour.

But since we're already here, organic doesn't mean pesticide free. It means using inferior pesticides that may well be MORE harmful than conventional ones (ALWAYS wash organic produce before eating, more so than regular produce, it may have had manure on it), as organic agriculture is based on bad science and a 100+ year old farming paradigm. They grow different varieties to cope with the lack of certain pesticides/fungicides, which may taste different. Organic production is typically much less efficient than regular production, but commands a higher market price.


... just, why. So all food production is the same, all farmers operate according to whoever convinced you organic methods are an inferior agriculture? Yes, there are flaws in the system, the certification, and certain companies that just hopped on the organic bandwagon that are going to take as many shortcuts as are allowed to make their extra buck. But, that's true of any food production. There are also a lot of VERY GOOD companies that do NOT employ chemical pesticides but rather use techniques which strengthen plants' inherent ability to fend off pests and disease, reduce habitat/recources for pests and attract/proliferate beneficial flora/fauna... the result being a stronger and more biodiverse local ecosystem, lasting fertility in the soil, and a more self sustaining agriculture. These latter companies are able to flourish because of the current 'trend' towards organic food. Not to mention, the general improvement in consumer awareness of their own impact based on how/what they eat... I consider that a step in the right direction, for sure.

Instead of saying 'oh, none of this is legit', how about reminding folks that even if it has an organic label, you should still research your food sources? Most of the Good Companies are very transparent with their production methods. Or should we believe you just as blindly as we believed the person who says organic agriculture is god's gift to humankind?

/endrant. Sorry Tristan, I don't want to hijack your thread, but this kind of commentary always agitates me. I'm done now.
 
Organic agriculture uses bad science. This is a blanket statement, but also a true one.

As an scientist in agriculture, the goodness or badness of a company is irrelevant to me. I favour Integrated Pest Management (IPM) strategies as an innately superior methodology to both Organic and conventional approaches. Organic farming may be a step in the right direction, it may be well meaning, but there are serious problems with the system.

Land efficiency is a key concern, which I believe will make Organic farming unsustainable with the growing human population.

The average organic-to-conventional yield ratio from our meta-analysis is 0.75 (with a 95% confidence interval of 0.71 to 0.79); that is, overall, organic yields are 25% lower than conventional.
SEUFERT, V., RAMANKUTTY, N. & FOLEY, J. A. 2012. Comparing the yields of organic and conventional agriculture. Nature, 485, 229-232.


Biodiversity in Organic production? Allow me to quote from the abstract of a review:

(1) It remains unclear whether a 'holistic' whole-farm approach (i.e. organic) provides greater benefits to biodiversity than carefully targeted prescriptions applied to relatively small areas of cropped and/or non-cropped habitats within conventional agriculture (i.e. agri-environment schemes); (2) Many comparative studies encounter methodological problems, limiting their ability to draw quantitative conclusions; (3) Our knowledge of the impacts of organic farming in pastoral and upland agriculture is limited; (4) There remains a pressing need for longitudinal, system-level studies in order to address these issues and to fill in the gaps in our knowledge of the impacts of organic farming, before a full appraisal of its potential role in biodiversity conservation in agroecosystems can be made
HOLE, D. G., PERKINS, A. J., WILSON, J. D., ALEXANDER, I. H., GRICE, F. & EVANS, A. D. 2005. Does organic farming benefit biodiversity? Biological Conservation, 122, 113-130.
Show me peer-reviewed references that disputes these claims.
 
Organic agriculture uses bad science. This is a blanket statement, but also a true one.

As an scientist in agriculture, the goodness or badness of a company is irrelevant to me. .

That's surprising, because it's the companies that employ these techniques, whatever they may be, that ensures their success or failure. It's the companies that decide how much they care about their land and their product. It's the companies that decide to prioritize quantity, quality or a sustainable balance of the two.

I'm not arguing the academics of agriculture, nor, if you read my commentary, was I defending organic agriculture for it's own sake. I'm defending the fact that there are many quality, sustainable operations that have attained organic certification to meet market demands. There are also many that have not certified (as we don't intend to, at least for many years). As organic is considered by the mainstream to be the main alternative to conventional farming, your blanket statement affects the perceptions of all those operations who fall outside conventional agriculture.

I'm arguing that your blanket statement is just that, a blanket statement, which is just the same as saying all organic agriculture is wonderful, as far as most people are concerned. I'm far more interested in an informed consumer that knows how to find and support good agriculture, whether certified organic or not.

As a farmer, I care less about the findings of a single study and more about the findings of hundreds of my peers. I trust those who make a living by observing nature to make accurate reports of when nature is doing well in their corner of the world. I trust those who have done this for 30, 40, 50 years and have found through trial and error, oftentimes, what promotes health on their land and what doesn't.
 
That's surprising, because it's the companies that employ these techniques, whatever they may be, that ensures their success or failure.
Just because you use bad science doesn't mean you will be a commercial failure or success. The market decides that, and regardless of the science involved, there is a market for organic produce.


It's the companies that decide how much they care about their land and their product. It's the companies that decide to prioritize quantity, quality or a sustainable balance of the two.

IPM, the methodology I propose as superior to conventional and Organic, does a better job of this prioritizing, by a number of science-based decision making processes that are part of the practices.

I'm arguing that your blanket statement is just that, a blanket statement, which is just the same as saying all organic agriculture is wonderful, as far as most people are concerned.
Some farms using Organic practices can be wonderful, I don't doubt this, but it doesn't mean it doesn't use outdated methodologies.

I'm far more interested in an informed consumer that knows how to find and support good agriculture, whether certified organic or not.
I don't argue that this isn't important and worthwhile, but organic methodology, from a good farm or not, needs to be brought into this century. There are movements to try and do this out there, but they are being resisted. I cannot condone a system that uses harmful Organic-certified pesticides when specific banned synthetic-pesticides could replace them and do less harm.There is no science behind such decisions, just rigid application of unchanging rules.

As organic is considered by the mainstream to be the main alternative to conventional farming, your blanket statement affects the perceptions of all those operations who fall outside conventional agriculture.
Yes, I do not recommend Organic agriculture as I see the public image it has is very misleading. That is my professional and well-read opinion based on the best currently available science, and will stay that way until I see evidence to the contrary. And if that evidence exists, I WILL change my mind. But it does not, and may not ever exist. That's not to say I recommend conventional farming either though.

As a farmer, I care less about the findings of a single study and more about the findings of hundreds of my peers. I trust those who make a living by observing nature to make accurate reports of when nature is doing well in their corner of the world. I trust those who have done this for 30, 40, 50 years and have found through trial and error, oftentimes, what promotes health on their land and what doesn't.

Human perception is innately flawed, and we developed science to be able to make decisions beyond the scope of our own flawed biology. Circumstantial evidence of 'what works' in agriculture needs to be proven by replicated studies in a variety of different scenarios. Otherwise, we get it wrong, or spend more resources than we need to to accomplish a task - rates of fertilizer for instance. While you know what works for your own land and perhaps a reasonable number of your peers, can you really make that same generalization for different soil types, different prevailing weather patterns, differing insect and microorganism and hundreds of other factors both across the country and, indeed, the world? Experience is valuable, to be sure, but you need science to figure out WHY your experience is valuable, and to apply it to other situations.

Perhaps you would feel less defensive if I were to point out the terrible consequences of conventional farming, with calendar-spraying of broad spectrum pesticides causing pest-resistance and destruction of the natural enemies of pests, resulting in a vicious cycle where conventional farming is the only approach that works without considerable effort? That's a problem, to be sure. In fact, I'll go as far as to say conventional farming is awful on many levels and that Organic farming does have some clear advantages over conventional. However, my criticisms still stand. I could not, in good conscience, recommend either methodologies as best practices.
 
To me, Organic means Costs More. That's really it.

I worked in a super market for ten years. I've seen people get really bent out of shape over every little detail on the "organic" section of the store, be it the produce or meats (Grass Fed/ Free Range / Hormone free, etc). But you know what? We were a lower economy store (always lowest prices in comparison to other stores, on the border of a taxed state while being no tax, etc). These people were so far and few between, our "organics" made up probably 2-3% of our store, if that. The majority of shoppers didn't give a fuck, because it cost more.

The only misconception that many of these people had was "Organic" meaning "Fresh", which isn't always necessarily the case. I'd much rather hit the farmers market and grab some "fresh" veggies and meats vs. the supermarket, but again. Price. It will always come back to that mighty dollar discussion.
 
Indeed, farmers markets are typically a great place to buy produce from smaller producers, and can often be of higher quality due to spending less time in storage and transport.

But yes, the higher price is due to smaller yields and potentially more expensive inputs in organic produce. Of course, the cynic might say that because they are a higher price, more value is attributed to them by the human mind...
 
higher price, more value
I have always loved this argument. I'll always love the counter argument of stocks such as google and facebook. Markets will always dictate price, not quality of products. But I'll keep my capitalism discussion for another forum.

It's funny, even with ALL of the information out there, people will still not give a fuck. I'm kinda one of those people. I know that "organic should be better for me", but it all seems kinda like a pile of bullshit in the form of hippy marketing. Maybe that's just a heavy mix of me being a cheap-ass and ignorance.

Also, why would a fat fuck like me really care about organic? Does it taste better? Is it magically going to make me healthier if I eat it? Is it REALLY a higher quality? If I buy that pound of that cheap chicken breast vs. that pound of organic, free range chicken breast for 2/3x the price, am I going to live forever? No. I'm not going to live forever. I'm going to live because I ate food, and shit it out just like always.

I mean, what's the health risk? Higher chance of cancer? Everything causes cancer. Liver? Stomach? Kidneys? Everything is bad for you. It all just seems like it's a massive scam to just market "organic food" to all the people that are forever scared they may get sick if they don't eat the purest of pure. Then you have the fat, obese, diabetic, heavy smoker that lives to be 100. In such a world that shit like that happens, I stopped caring (to an extent). I'm going to eat what makes me happy, but try to keep things in moderation. The stress of making sure every single food item comes from only the highest quality, pesticide free, only fertilized by the shit of a cow that's only been fed free range fucking grass in the fields of fucking heaven is what's going to kill people.

Edit: Quick note, I keep typing like a sentence at work then coming back. My thoughts are a little scattered on the topic.
 
Other than growth hormones in meat, I really don't pay much attention to organic vs non-organic (or anything GMO for that matter). Yeah, there are some companies that do take the extra steps to make sure that their stuff is all-the-things-free, but to track all of that down then try and keep track of that when you shop at several different grocery stores is a PITA. Factor in the extra cost and I'm out. If I was that worried about it I'd just plant my own garden.
 
i don't really worry about organic not organic, A organic fruit looks and taste like a non organic one to me so i just try to find whats the freshest and of course price is always a factor
 
The only problem I have with it is the certification part, which seems like it makes it near impossible to tell "good" organic from "bad' organic. I can't tell if I'm buying the one that's just the snake-oil brand, or the one that's truly following good organic practices. I typically shop at Wegmans, which from what have found in terms of information on, they do a decent job on their store-brand organics, so I don't feel like I'm getting ripped off.

I buy free-range veggy-fed eggs at the store because I like the thought of the little fuckers running around at least semi-happily while working to make my omelette. I also sometimes buy the organic free-range chicken for the same reason, lil' Clucky gets to live large before becoming friday night BBQ. It tastes good too. I've bought some grass-fed "organic" beef before, and while I think it tasted great, the price differential is pretty big on that, so I don't do it too often.

Plus, cows are dumb, and chickens.... they plot for world domination.
 
In a rare moment for me on a thread that delves into science; I'm shooting from the hip on this one. I actually have a background in environmental microbiology (I actually wrote a paper on microbial biodiversity in farming once upon a time) but its been a damn long time since I've really read up on it so I'm probably out of the loop.

That disclaimer aside, here are my (quite possibly incorrect) impressions on the subject:

I don't see organic farming keeping up with world population growth rates. Regardless of whether it has benefits or not, this is the Achilles Heel of food production.

"Modern" (out of the loop) conventional farming has huge (negative) impacts on soil microbial biodiversity; while I don't believe this will cause any major problems anytime soon its still worrisome. Fun fact though; if you go to Italy and dig around in the right parts of some forests you can actually tell which sections were once Roman farms based on the microbes you find there (so maybe organic farming isn't all that much better, but either way reduced biodiversity is clearly something you don't bounce back from).

Personally my hope for the future of farming is pinkhouses:

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thesalt/20...rtical-pinkhouses-the-future-of-urban-farming

Because, honestly, who wouldn't want to eat food that came out of a farm that looks like Tristan's dream computer?
 
Pinkhouses are a great innovation, but they have a massive up-front infrastructure cost. As such, many small growers will be unable to access this level of intensification. Yes, it might be the future, but it's a long way off.
 
Pinkhouses are a great innovation, but they have a massive up-front infrastructure cost. As such, many small growers will be unable to access this level of intensification. Yes, it might be the future, but it's a long way off.

True; perhaps the future will feature (I love saying that) large-scale corporate farming in the form of urban pinkhouses to produce much of the food necessary to sustain the population, with small "boutique" farms producing more expensive food more traditionally. A nice little niche for everyone to make money in and the population as a whole gets a huge supply of affordable foods, with the option to splurge on less soylent greeny alternatives for special occasions.

Like the holiday they will someday make for me to memorialize how cool I am.
 
What's the problem with soyolent green? It's people!

But yes, I suspect that's where the future is going. Some of the shitty little farms in the greater Sydney are are going to have to get their act together to classify as 'boutique' though :p
 
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