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The Problem with DOMA and Prop 8 has NOTHING to do with gay marriage

Keleynal

Jesus Freak
The Supreme Court recently ruled on questions regarding the Defense of Marriage Act, and Proposition 8, the ban on gay marriage that was passed in California. This whole situation disturbs me deeply, and it has nothing to do with gay marriage, for or against. So for the sake of this discussion, let's get past that politically charged issue and look at what I believe is a much BIGGER problem.

That problem is this: A law was passed in California that many found to be repugnant. Because of that, the law was challenged in court. Let me be clear on this- a completely legitimate law faced a completely legitimate challenge.

Now, whenever a law is challenged, there are always 2 sides to the argument- The prosecution, or those that feel that the law is unconstitutional, and the defense, which is the executive branch in charge of enforcing the laws. Namely, the Department of Justice on the Federal level, and whatever the equivalent is in California.

The DOJ is supposed to defend the laws that are passed by Congress and state legislatures/majority vote, whatever the rule is in that sate. However, in the case of DOMA and Prop 8, the executive branch refused to defend the law. Do we understand what that means? Our government refused to defend a law that was legitimately passed by federal and state authority because those in power for it personally and politically repugnant to do so.

So we were left with a court case with only one side- which is impossible to litigate. Therefore, a group of Senators and proponents of the law put together a group to defend the law in California's Supreme Court. But there was a problem- they weren't the one's that were supposed to be arguing for the law, the State was, but the State was MIA. Because of that, their defense of the law was rendered invalid and a lower court's earlier ruling overturning Prop B stood.

That's when it was taken to the Supreme Court, and THAT is what was on trial- not if gay marriage was OK or not, but could a group of people band together to defend a law that the State has neglected their duty to defend.

The Supreme Court has ruled no, they had no standing. The State must defend the laws because they have the standing to do so. Therefore, the whole thing was kicked back to where it was and Prop B remains invalidated by the lower court. The gay marriage issue was just a sideshow that muddled things up and got people all emotional.

So now we have what I consider to be a Constitutional crisis on our hands. We have a government that thinks it can pick and choose which laws they want to uphold and defend in court. And before you write it off as no big deal since you happen to like the outcome of this debacle, let me ask you if you would feel that way with the tables turned? What if a fiercely racist state decided to overturn Brown v Board of Education and segregated their classrooms? Would you be OK with a government that put their hands in their pockets and refused to defend the law because they found it politically expedient to do so? No rational person would.

Republicans and Democrats need to get past their differences and unite on this one issue at least: we demand a government that does their job, regardless of personal feelings or political wind.

(And just for the record, I'm well aware that the ruling also decided that the federal government must recognize and extend the same benefits to married same sex couples as heterosexual couples. A ruling that I actually agree with, but is a separate issue from what I'm discussing here.)
 
I am trying to understand what the issue here is because I know very little about this shit. Other than the heated charged parts of it.

So It went to the supreme court, and the president didn't back it? Or California? I am confused as to what was done against the constitution.

I am not good with this shit... maybe an easier breakdown for the idiots like me?
 
Fair enough.

A law was challenged in court. The government decided it didn't want to defend the law because they didn't like it. Some other people tried to defend the law. The Supreme Court said they couldn't do that, only the government can defend it's laws.

The crisis is this- Who is going to hold our government accountable for defending it's laws when it's the very people who SHOULD hold them accountable that are doing it?
 
Fair enough.

A law was challenged in court. The government decided it didn't want to defend the law because they didn't like it. Some other people tried to defend the law. The Supreme Court said they couldn't do that, only the government can defend it's laws.

The crisis is this- Who is going to hold our government accountable for defending it's laws when it's the very people who SHOULD hold them accountable that are doing it?


So what part of government didn't want to defend this law? And why would they defend it if they oppose it?
 
So what part of government didn't want to defend this law? And why would they defend it if they oppose it?

The Department of Justice, which is part of the Executive branch refuse to defend it. And whether they like the law or not doesn't matter. The legislature makes the laws, the judiciary interprets the laws, and the executive branch enforces the law. If the executive branch doesn't like a law, they should campaign publicly for the law to be changed and/or introduce legislation to change the law or make a new law.

In this case, they just said that they refused to do their jobs- which is upholding the Constitution and the laws of this country.
 
The Department of Justice, which is part of the Executive branch refuse to defend it. And whether they like the law or not doesn't matter. The legislature makes the laws, the judiciary interprets the laws, and the executive branch enforces the law. If the executive branch doesn't like a law, they should campaign publicly for the law to be changed and/or introduce legislation to change the law or make a new law.

In this case, they just said that they refused to do their jobs- which is upholding the Constitution and the laws of this country.


Hmmm...

Yeah I got nothin.

I mean at least this finally happened for the good of something instead of the gov. being a lacky and fucking everything up as usual. But yeah I see the point.
 
I see where you are coming from, and the concern is valid. I suppose I should care more about this, but I also feel that this law was so ridiculous that I can't be upset with them refusing to defend it. It's a slippery slope, and we are lucky that they didn't pull it on something damaging (at least in my opinion) but this is one occasion I an willing to let them slide.

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The real problem here is that I work for the auditor-controller/county clerk/elections office in the county I work for, so I had to deal with the fking dicks from the media, plus all the protesters and extra people wanting to get married today at my office (usually the people that want to get married come in with their loud ass kids that cry in the lobby) and then we also had to deal with people complaining that we only issue the marriage certificates here, because we took a "no fking way" stance on letting anyone (gay or straight) get married in our office, because it's too distracting and time consuming and lets be honest here, I've had to deal with 3 elections already in the last 3 months and I am actually fairly busy (comparatively) at work right now because we're doing the stupid general election for the 16th senate district that I don't have time to answer these people's questions when all I want to do is go get some water before I go back to work fixing all the damn electronic voting equipment. /endrant
 
Proposition 8, as in the number eight. Not the letter B.

The law was illegitimate, because the executive considered it to be unconstitutional. They couldn't repeal it without a vote, but they could refuse to defend it. That's why it was before the Supreme Court - they're the ones who make the final call.

Everything is working as intended. Well, not quite everything. Congress is broken as hell, and the Voting Rights Act ruling was a monstrous injustice.
 
Proposition 8, as in the number eight. Not the letter B.

The law was illegitimate, because the executive considered it to be unconstitutional. They couldn't repeal it without a vote, but they could refuse to defend it. That's why it was before the Supreme Court - they're the ones who make the final call.

Everything is working as intended. Well, not quite everything. Congress is broken as hell, and the Voting Rights Act ruling was a monstrous injustice.


Well, then there is informed information like this, and I am once again going to say, well done government for this one. FFS the french basically laid down the law themselves for this.
 
Proposition 8, as in the number eight. Not the letter B.

The law was illegitimate, because the executive considered it to be unconstitutional. They couldn't repeal it without a vote, but they could refuse to defend it. That's why it was before the Supreme Court - they're the ones who make the final call.

Everything is working as intended. Well, not quite everything. Congress is broken as hell, and the Voting Rights Act ruling was a monstrous injustice.
It's not the executive branch's job to decide if something is Unconstitutional or not. That's what the Judicial Branch is for. Well, not originally, but it is now.

My thing is I like powers to stay as separate as possible. When one branch thinks they can make laws, enforce laws, and invalidate laws all on their own, we have a serious balance issue.

It disturbs me that people are willing to overlook this because they like this specific outcome. Who is going to stand up when they come for you?
 
It's not the executive branch's job to decide if something is Unconstitutional or not. That's what the Judicial Branch is for. Well, not originally, but it is now.

My thing is I like powers to stay as separate as possible. When one branch thinks they can make laws, enforce laws, and invalidate laws all on their own, we have a serious balance issue.

It disturbs me that people are willing to overlook this because they like this specific outcome. Who is going to stand up when they come for you?
That's what our 2nd amendment is for.. unless of course you live in New York like I do.
 
Basically the let the right thing happen in the wrong way. The problem is this leaves the door open to let the wrong thing happen again later.

The checks and balance of the slippery slope here is: letting the next thing happen can only happen if the majority is behind it like it was with these laws. If the public was on the other side of the issue, the DoJ would have stepped in and defended it because otherwise they would have been booted in the next election.

It comes down to re-elections and doing it this way kept with the spirit of their job (doing the will of the people) if not the letter of it.

I personally think they should have defended against it because its their job. I fully understand why they didn't and support the outcome.
 
Basically the let the right thing happen in the wrong way. The problem is this leaves the door open to let the wrong thing happen again later.

The checks and balance of the slippery slope here is: letting the next thing happen can only happen if the majority is behind it like it was with these laws. If the public was on the other side of the issue, the DoJ would have stepped in and defended it because otherwise they would have been booted in the next election.

It comes down to re-elections and doing it this way kept with the spirit of their job (doing the will of the people) if not the letter of it.

I personally think they should have defended against it because its their job. I fully understand why they didn't and support the outcome.

Thank you. I felt like I was going crazy and the only one that could see this.

Though I could debate the "majority opinion" thing. After all, it was a majority vote in CA that sparked this whole thing. The majority of political wind is certainly on the side of the gov't on this one though.
 
If it wasn't they wouldn't get away with doing nothing. There would be calls for impeachment and even though that wouldn't work they would have a huge fight to get re-elected.

I think thats why they ducked out on this one. Even being seen in the courtrooms would be easy fodder for opponents to use come election day next time.
 
Also, they could have at least PRETENDED to do their jobs. Give a half-hearted defense, enter a plea of no contest. SOMETHING. Then they would have the spirit (as you defined it) AND the letter.
 
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