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Why doesn't God compromise

Keleynal

Jesus Freak
So this is a question I've been struggling inside myself with for awhile: Why would a loving God take positions against certain behaviors that often seem to be anything but loving?

That's not quite it. Let me try again: Why is Christianity so uncompromising when it comes to right and wrong? Where is the grace, mercy, and unconditional love?

Closer. I think it will be easier just to give an example and go from there. And just so it's clear, this is more of a working theory for me than anything else, and I welcome all feedback that could help me refine my position.


So let's take an easy (and completely made up) example: A Christian family has a daughter that is 16 years old. The parents learn that she and her boyfriend have been getting very serious and plan to have sex in the near future. The parents confront the daughter with the usual arguments against premarital sex- unintended consequences like pregnancy, setting herself up for heartbreak since most teen romances don't last, and of course the Bible says it's wrong. The daughter makes it clear that she has decided to pursue the relationship, no slowing down.

There are many responses the parents can make, but for simplicity let's just go with two:

Option 1: They tell the daughter that they are disappointed with her decision, but they lover her regardless. They then do their best to educate her about sex, contraception, and get her to agree to certain rules like always letting them know where she is and always using protection.

Option 2: They tell the daughter that they are disappointed with her decision, but they love her regardless. They forbid her to ever be with her boyfriend without a chaperone. They make it clear that any and all freedoms she enjoys can and will be taken away from her to prevent her from acting on her plan to have premarital sex.

Let's explore a possible outcome of both of these options. In option 1, the daughter becomes sexually active, but other than that, things stay pretty much the same. She goes to school, church, all the normal places, and the family doesn't really talk about what's going on, but they all know.

In option 2, the daughter becomes angry and resentful. She runs away and lives with her boyfriend. She goes to school, but avoids church and anywhere else she might run in to her parents.

On the face of things, option 1 seems like the more loving option for the parents to take, but I don't think that's the route that God would be on the side of, and in fact option 2 is more loving. I'll show you why I think that as we continue the scenario.

As often happens in these teen relationships, the 16 year old girl gets pregnant (under both options). She is scared and doesnt know what to do. Her boyfriend is just a regular guy, the family isnt rich. She's convinced that abortion is wrong, but is also afraid of what it would mean to have a baby. The parents respond by reaching out to the daughter and offering any help or assistance they can, including paying medical expenses and buying clothes, diapers, formula, whatever. In the option 2 scenario, they make sure the daughter knows that she and the baby are welcome back home any time, but the earlier requirement of being chaperoned with the boyfriend still stands.

Under option 1, the daughter would of course be very grateful to the parents for their assistance, but that's about it. She would see no need to change her behavior or achieve any reconciliation with her parents or God. As far as she can see, everything is just fine.

Under option 2, the daughter has a choice to make- to accept or reject her parent's offer to fully reconcile and change her behavior to be back in line with Biblical principles, or to remain separated from her parents and from God.

This is why option 2 is the correct and more loving option: it reveals the rift that her bad decisions (sins, if you will) have created between her and God. In both options, she is living in sin, but in option 1 she is also living in deception. Her parent's acceptance and justification of her behavior have blinded her to any need for meaningful change or repentance. When mercy and grace come, it is not seen as a call to repentance. In fact, the parents are all but obligated to provide that support since it was their silent approval that lead their daughter to this outcome.

There's a Bible verse in the book of Revelation that always puzzled me. To paraphrase, it says "I (God) wish that you were either hot or cold, but because you are lukewarm I will spit you out of My mouth." There's more than one way to read that, but one common way is that God would rather us be fully in His camp, or completely and totally against him- worshipping Satan and sacrificing cats and stuff. He's saying it's worse to be a "good person" that identifies themselves as a Christian, but compromises and knowingly allows sin to remain.

Why is that? Isn't some morality better than none at all? Not from God's perspective. Sin kills. It is toxic. It separates us from God, destroys our witness, and undermines everything we say we believe in. There's no worse state to be in than to be separated from God, on your way to hell, and believe that everything is OK.

Option 1 is the route we take when we care more about if a person will like or love us anymore after we tell them what they really need to hear. It's the parent's selfish option. God never picks the selfish option. He tells us the truth even when He knows it could push us away, but He always looks for opportunities to reach back out to us and draw us back to Him. Because that's what true love does. It doesn't compromise; it forgives.
 
Ok
Why is Christianity so uncompromising when it comes to right and wrong? Where is the grace, mercy, and unconditional love?

Because Christianity, like every other religion is simply a folktale and a tool wielded by humans and used to exert control, justify killing/wars/ridiculous acts/laws, etc. I am also generally under the opinion that people use it as a crutch because they fear the unknown. NOTE: I am not saying everyone who follows every religion does these things. I did go to 7 years of Catholic School, or as I like to call it Atheist/Agnostic Boot Camp. Based on what I suffered through and what some of my friends pull from the faith, I'd say you should use the fictional stories in the Bible and teachings in Church as guidelines to keep you on a positive moral path.

"I (God) wish that you were either hot or cold, but because you are lukewarm I will spit you out of My mouth."

My mind fell completely into the gutter when I read this.:S

There's more,than one way to read that, but one common way is that God would rather us be fully in His camp, or completely and totally against him- worshipping Satan and sacrificing cats and stuff

I swear I don't sacrifice cats....goats...yes...cats..no.

This pretty much sums up my thoughts on Christianity and any other religion, because most of the major ones are the same general story and idea.


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I'm an atheist but I went to catholic school up until college.. My analysis of this - people want to be God. By that I mean, they want to be the ones that know the 'right' way, often by speaking as God's proxy, or so they say. Any deviation from their belief system can thusly be supported by the, "because God says so" argument, which is much more simple, and in their mind absolute, then having to have an actual argument.

Now, after thousands of years of people using the, "because God says so" argument we are stuck with these polarized, set-in-their-ways groups of extremists. Look up 'group think" and "group polarization" psychology articles
 
I'm an atheist but I went to catholic school up until college.. My analysis of this - people want to be God. By that I mean, they want to be the ones that know the 'right' way, often by speaking as God's proxy, or so they say. Any deviation from their belief system can thusly be supported by the, "because God says so" argument, which is much more simple, and in their mind absolute, then having to have an actual argument.

Now, after thousands of years of people using the, "because God says so" argument we are stuck with these polarized, set-in-their-ways groups of extremists. Look up 'group think" and "group polarization" psychology articles


Ahhh a NYC buddy with the same upbringing. Hello new friend :p
 
I'm an atheist but I went to catholic school up until college.. My analysis of this - people want to be God. By that I mean, they want to be the ones that know the 'right' way, often by speaking as God's proxy, or so they say. Any deviation from their belief system can thusly be supported by the, "because God says so" argument, which is much more simple, and in their mind absolute, then having to have an actual argument.

Now, after thousands of years of people using the, "because God says so" argument we are stuck with these polarized, set-in-their-ways groups of extremists. Look up 'group think" and "group polarization" psychology articles



Jeez everyone went to Catholic School huh?
 
Haha, apparently. Seems to backfire half the time

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk 4 Beta
 
I'm an atheist but I went to catholic school up until college.. My analysis of this - people want to be God. By that I mean, they want to be the ones that know the 'right' way, often by speaking as God's proxy, or so they say. Any deviation from their belief system can thusly be supported by the, "because God says so" argument, which is much more simple, and in their mind absolute, then having to have an actual argument.

Now, after thousands of years of people using the, "because God says so" argument we are stuck with these polarized, set-in-their-ways groups of extremists. Look up 'group think" and "group polarization" psychology articles

One of the reasons I like having discussions about my faith is that I believe that there is much more to it than "cuz God said so". It's easy to write off everything in the Bible as folklore and dismiss Christians out of hand as wishful thinkers. Its also easy to label an entire group as brainwashed (the less polite way to say group think) than to engage in any meaningful discussion or try to seem things from another perspective. Your childhood experience in Catholic school did not teach you everything there is to learn, and chances are a lot of the impressions you came away with have more to do with the way you were taught than the actual Bible itself.
 
This is true - I based my statement on evidence I've collected through life experience. I didn't mean to sound like I was generalizing to all Christians by any means, that's just my analysis of the ones that tend to be more closed minded and detrimental to their community evolving as a whole. Most of my family is Catholic, and they are perfectly accepting of most manner of people. I'm sorry if this sounded generalized or ill-construed, it was just my 2 cents. Also, I wasn't referring to group think in terms of being brain washed, I just meant that group think causes a polarizing mentality among all group members sometimes, and this can cause inter-group tension.

The bible is something I've always believed needs to be interepreted on an individual basis. It didn't seem to offer me anything, so I moved on. Most of the people that taught me had view points I disagreed with, and I'm sure that played a major role in how I feel now. People are entitled to believe what they want, so I try not to take that away from anyone; it's just not for me.

I'm glad you look at it from an intelligent and analytic perspective! I wish more people were as open to discussion!
 
I went to a wishy-washy Church of England School. There was religious content in the form of Hymns and Religious Education (read Christian education), but no one really cared if you believed or not.

About seven years ago, I tried reading the bible from start to finish and I was genuinely shocked with the amount of incest, non-consensual sex, genocide and other unacceptable content inside. That stuff needs an R18+ label on it. Children should not be exposed to it until they have the critical thinking skills to tell the difference between fantasy and reality, lest they pick up messages like "It's ok to murder men, women and children if they worship a false idol."

Kel - would you kill someone if God ordered you to?
 
That's an interesting question, Dire. When I think about the times when either God killed someone ordered His people to kill someone (most notably in the Old Testament book of Joshua), the theme seems to be that God is bringing judgment to a person or group of people. In most every case, we aren't given a complete picture of who the people were, why they were being judged, or any overtures of mercy that they rejected. We can see some cases where mercy is mixed with judgment, as with the prostitute Rahab and her entire family that were spared at Jericho.

To pass judgment on an entire culture is unbelievably egotistical and brash. No one has the right to do that, unless you are God. He has the right to destroy anything that He created for any or no reason at all. Fortunately for us, the Bible teaches that God is not arbitrary or capricious and His primary character trait is love. So when He orders judgment to come, it is because it is time for justice to come in the form He has prescribed. We do not possess the knowledge, wisdom, or right to question God's authority. We can either bow to it or be blown over by it.

So to answer your question directly- I hope I would have the fortitude to do whatever God tells me to do, regardless of what my feelings are at the time. God knows what it's like to have someone close to Him murdered. His own son was killed in the one of the most horrific ways ever conceived by mankind. I can trust God to make the right decision every time, even when it is at great personal cost to Himself.
 
the Bible teaches that God is not arbitrary or capricious and His primary character trait is love.
You need to do some very selective reading to take home the love message.

That is not exactly evident in the Old Testament and indeed, the concept of Hell is not introduced until the New Testament. Unremorseful murder in the first part, carrot and stick in the second.


We can either bow to it or be blown over by it.
See, I question whether it exists at all. No compassion or mercy is offered in the face of natural disasters, terrorist attacks or other horrific events. As human beings we cannot stand in the face of forces greater than us, sure, but we don't necessarily need to attribute supernatural influence to them either.

My view is that there is no force of will behind the events in the chaotic world, and that anything experienced as 'God' always comes from within the mind of the believer themselves - of course God knows everything about you he is, in a neurological sense, part of you. I am acutely aware of my own human fallibility, and if God or any other entity asked me to kill someone, I would have to consult professionals about my own sanity rather than carry our such an edict. After all, isn't it also possible that a genetic condition, poison, brain injury, cancer or anything else could appear to be the voice of God, calling you to a false edict?
 
How would you know it was God asking you to do something (anything not just killing) and not your mind making you think it was God talking?

The other problem I have is that the bible is supposed to be literately the word of God, written with a man's hand but not come from a mans mind. Because of that it is supposed to be 100% true and literal. How does that reconcile with passages that say you can own slaves or rape a woman so she has to marry you and only you?
 
I tried to be good. I fucking TRIED. At first, I was going to ignore this thread. God discussions tend to get me in trouble. But then Diremongoose linked it to me. And I thought 'I'll read it, but not comment'. And then I read it. And now I have to respond. Buckle up.

Option 2: They tell the daughter that they are disappointed with her decision, but they love her regardless. They forbid her to ever be with her boyfriend without a chaperone. They make it clear that any and all freedoms she enjoys can and will be taken away from her to prevent her from acting on her plan to have premarital sex.

This is a horrible plan, and BAD parenting. They could not drive her to sleep with her boyfriend faster than if they put her in the car, and LITERALLY drove her to his house, ready for sex. The first option? Much more responsible, logical, and reasonable. Teenagers have hormones screaming at them 24/7, and poor impulse control. The sex is going to happen. The best you can do as a parent is control the variables. In this case, getting her on a form of contraception (the implant being the best for teenagers - you cannot trust that she'll take the pill), and encouraging that she use condoms. I cannot stress this enough.

Moving on to the next piece of 'logic'.

Under option 2, the daughter has a choice to make- to accept or reject her parent's offer to fully reconcile and change her behavior to be back in line with Biblical principles, or to remain separated from her parents and from God.

So their answer to the first bit of bad parenting is to CONTINUE TO PARENT BADLY? Wow. These fictional parents are doing a great job at being terrible parents. Clearly this a winning strategy. Allow me to elaborate.

So she keeps the baby, but her parents have basically disowned her until she does what they say. Since she's a teenager, she's probably going to say 'fine, I don't need you'. You know, because she has poor impulse control. Because she's a TEENAGER. So she breaks up with her boyfriend, feels like she has nowhere to turn, and is suddenly EASY PREY for the first jerk to come along and make it seem like he'll look after her. Congratulations. They have just turned your daughter from the sweet girl she was into some guy's piece of meat. Hell, she might even end up a meth addict or something. All because these parents made their own love CONDITIONAL. And before you say: 'they didn't say they'd stop loving her!', allow me to nip that in the bud. Words are bullshit. No teenager, all alone with a baby is going to think: 'man my life sucks right now, but at least my parents still love me!'

Further, it goes against the New Testament, within which God's love is revealed to be unconditional. So not only are they being terrible parents, they're also being bad Christians. But lets move on.

This is why option 2 is the correct and more loving option: it reveals the rift that her bad decisions (sins, if you will) have created between her and God. In both options, she is living in sin, but in option 1 she is also living in deception. Her parent's acceptance and justification of her behavior have blinded her to any need for meaningful change or repentance. When mercy and grace come, it is not seen as a call to repentance. In fact, the parents are all but obligated to provide that support since it was their silent approval that lead their daughter to this outcome.


No. No it isn't. Alienating your child for the (admittedly) bad choices she has made is a TERRIBLE idea. I hope that's clear by now. In fact, if the parents have reached the point where their only choices with their daughter are the original first two, they deserve the pain that's coming to them, because they haven't parented very well. Sadly, that particular less is coming to them via the health and wellbeing of their teenage daughter.

I'm a guy. I'll never get pregnant. But when I was a teenager, I undertook a series of behaviours that really strained my relationship with my parents. If they'd made choices similar to Option 2 with me, I WOULD BE IN JAIL. Instead, I'm happily engaged, living away from home, and studying to be a high school teacher.

I know which option I'm happier about.

Class dismissed.
 
I tried to be good. I fucking TRIED. At first, I was going to ignore this thread. God discussions tend to get me in trouble. But then Diremongoose linked it to me. And I thought 'I'll read it, but not comment'. And then I read it. And now I have to respond. Buckle up.
FIRE IN THE HOLE!
 
My fictional example is far from perfect. I made it up on the fly as an attempt to illustrate a concept, not to justify a particular response to a specific situation.

The point of my post was supposed to illustrate how I think God confronts sin in an uncompromising manner while still staying true to His character and nature. Perhaps my example was too flawed to convey what I was trying say. Probably because the situation I chose is complex enough that I don't know what the correct Biblical response would be.

If this situation did occur with me, I think I would be much more understanding and less dogmatic than the Option 2 parents, but certainly not empowering like the Option 1. I did mention that there are MANY different ways to handle the situation. I went for polar opposites to try to make a point, but I think it may have been lost in the sauce.
 
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