Why doesn't God compromise

[Crake]

My fictional example is far from perfect. I made it up on the fly as an attempt to illustrate a concept, not to justify a particular response to a specific situation.

The point of my post was supposed to illustrate how I think God confronts sin in an uncompromising manner while still staying true to His character and nature. Perhaps my example was too flawed to convey what I was trying say. Probably because the situation I chose is complex enough that I don't know what the correct Biblical response would be.

If this situation did occur with me, I think I would be much more understanding and less dogmatic than the Option 2 parents, but certainly not empowering like the Option 1. I did mention that there are MANY different ways to handle the situation. I went for polar opposites to try to make a point, but I think it may have been lost in the sauce.

I completely understand what you were going for there; it's a spectrum of parenting. Wikipedia has an article on parenting styles and I think this fits into the concept quite nicely as far as that goes.

 

[tr1age]

My fictional example is far from perfect. I made it up on the fly as an attempt to illustrate a concept, not to justify a particular response to a specific situation.

The point of my post was supposed to illustrate how I think God confronts sin in an uncompromising manner while still staying true to His character and nature. Perhaps my example was too flawed to convey what I was trying say. Probably because the situation I chose is complex enough that I don't know what the correct Biblical response would be.

If this situation did occur with me, I think I would be much more understanding and less dogmatic than the Option 2 parents, but certainly not empowering like the Option 1. I did mention that there are MANY different ways to handle the situation. I went for polar opposites to try to make a point, but I think it may have been lost in the sauce.

Here is my latest take on death, and it freaks me the fuck out. While I want to believe there is SOMETHING after death, my personal belief and I believe I have talked about this in a rant somewhere before is that it goes black. We end. Our existence is an anomaly. Otherwise wouldn't there be heaven for all creatures on this earth?



Not the skit but a guy explaning it. Can't find the original one.

Now what keeps my brain in check from the unfathomable BLACK OUT, is the idea of energy and dispersing it. So maybe we are reborn, maybe we live in a different space afterwards. But whatever it is I hope it isn't just dark.

That being said I have a hard time believing in much of any of this. It isn't that I don't believe in morals and code of conduct. It is that I believe we have one life, and we need to live it to the fullest. Meh.

 

[Crake]

Here is my latest take on death, and it freaks me the fuck out. While I want to believe there is SOMETHING after death, my personal belief and I believe I have talked about this in a rant somewhere before is that it goes black. We end. Our existence is an anomaly. Otherwise wouldn't there be heaven for all creatures on this earth?



Not the skit but a guy explaning it. Can't find the original one.

Now what keeps my brain in check from the unfathomable BLACK OUT, is the idea of energy and dispersing it. So maybe we are reborn, maybe we live in a different space afterwards. But whatever it is I hope it isn't just dark.

That being said I have a hard time believing in much of any of this. It isn't that I don't believe in morals and code of conduct. It is that I believe we have one life, and we need to live it to the fullest. Meh.

I've actually thought about this a lot and I've come to the conclusion that, reasonably, if the universe is infinite and time (or at least our idea of time) is infinite, then everything that can physically happen within the realm of the laws of the universe is eventually going to happen. That being said, going back to your statement about us being energy and dispersing, it is reasonable to assume that given the infinite nature of the universe, the exact particles/energy that compose our body and mind will eventually be rejoined. This assumes you don't believe in a soul/heaven. Either way, we're coming back!

 

[Keleynal]

I completely understand what you were going for there; it's a spectrum of parenting. Wikipedia has an article on parenting styles and I think this fits into the concept quite nicely as far as that goes.

As a parent, I am very interested in this, but completely not the discussion I was trying to get into here. Maybe next time I'll use petty theft as my example. Or murder. Something less open to interpretation.

 

[Crake]

As a parent, I am very interested in this, but completely not the discussion I was trying to get into here. Maybe next time I'll use petty theft as my example. Or murder. Something less open to interpretation.

Sorry, didn't mean to go off base. I was just citing that as a comparison to your example!

 

[Keleynal]

I've actually thought about this a lot and I've come to the conclusion that, reasonably, if the universe is infinite and time (or at least our idea of time) is infinite, then everything that can physically happen within the realm of the laws of the universe is eventually going to happen. That being said, going back to your statement about us being energy and dispersing, it is reasonable to assume that given the infinite nature of the universe, the exact particles/energy that compose our body and mind will eventually be rejoined. This assumes you don't believe in a soul/heaven. Either way, we're coming back!

Which is kind of ooky. Am I my great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-grandfather's recycled parts? I'm sure he was a great guy, but even so, no thanks!

I believe that the afterlife will be just as physical as this one. The Bible seems to indicate that a new heaven and earth are created (after this one is blown up) and we are also given new "perfect" physical bodies that apparently last for all eternity. So apparently there's some different physics going on. I have heard some say that God creates an entirely new reality in which to house this new heaven and earth. Entirely possible, given the needs of eternal existence, but I'm not convinced that this reality couldn't handle it, since it seems that God's original intention was for people to live forever...

Anyway, to Tristan's comment- heaven is for everyone that chooses to go there. You may now begin flaming me for daring to say such a thing.

 

[tr1age]

Which is kind of ooky. Am I my great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-grandfather's recycled parts? I'm sure he was a great guy, but even so, no thanks!

I believe that the afterlife will be just as physical as this one. The Bible seems to indicate that a new heaven and earth are created (after this one is blown up) and we are also given new "perfect" physical bodies that apparently last for all eternity. So apparently there's some different physics going on. I have heard some say that God creates an entirely new reality in which to house this new heaven and earth. Entirely possible, given the needs of eternal existence, but I'm not convinced that this reality couldn't handle it, since it seems that God's original intention was for people to live forever...

Anyway, to Tristan's comment- heaven is for everyone that chooses to go there. You may now begin flaming me for daring to say such a thing.

Nah no need to flame. I hope that if there is an "almighty" they can judge based on actions in life, morals, and the such. Not on how many hail marys you say or church attendance.

 

[Zakis]

Anyway, to Tristan's comment- heaven is for everyone that chooses to go there. You may now begin flaming me for daring to say such a thing.

I'm not going to heaven, I am going to the bar when I die...or do we reincarnate?

 

[Keleynal]

Nah no need to flame. I hope that if there is an "almighty" they can judge based on actions in life, morals, and the such. Not on how many hail marys you say or church attendance.

O dear God I hope not. I'm totally screwed if I'm to be judged based on my actions. Fortunately, it is grace that saves, not works. Jesus did all the heavy lifting with the whole dying and coming back thing. I could never be good enough to deserve that measure of love. Again, fortunately God's love for me is bigger than that, so I'll be judged according to Who I know and Whose family I belong to. The final fortunately- God's children get a guaranteed spot in heaven. Even if they, like me, think a Hail Mary is a football play.

 

[tr1age]

O dear God I hope not. I'm totally screwed if I'm to be judged based on my actions. Fortunately, it is grace that saves, not works. Jesus did all the heavy lifting with the whole dying and coming back thing. I could never be good enough to deserve that measure of love. Again, fortunately God's love for me is bigger than that, so I'll be judged according to Who I know and Whose family I belong to. The final fortunately- God's children get a guaranteed spot in heaven. Even if they, like me, think a Hail Mary is a football play.

See this is what I don't get. Why must we think of ourselves as SHIT in the eyes of religion?

I personally believe there are GOOD and there are BAD people. Some lesser extents and more than others. But there is a core to every human on this planet.

I mean with all the different religions as well, how can we even be having this conversation, when in certain religions it is entry to heaven to kill oneself and those around them?

Yet in others it is to live a life of celibacy.

And in others, it is say a few hail marys and all is forgiven?

What truly bugs me about Christianity as a religion is the idea that IF you are gay, and you truly want to repent for your "sins" you CAN. You can literally wash away your sexuality in order to "get into heaven" so to say. So go fuck up your living life, for a promise of the "perfect life". I get the faith argument here, but there is flaws.

Also out of all the creatures in this world, we ARE different, we have the ability to kill one another at a distance.

 

[Fish]

O dear God I hope not. I'm totally screwed if I'm to be judged based on my actions. Fortunately, it is grace that saves, not works. Jesus did all the heavy lifting with the whole dying and coming back thing. I could never be good enough to deserve that measure of love. Again, fortunately God's love for me is bigger than that, so I'll be judged according to Who I know and Whose family I belong to. The final fortunately- God's children get a guaranteed spot in heaven. Even if they, like me, think a Hail Mary is a football play.

This is one thing that bugs me about religion. Do all the bad deeds you want as long as you go to church and ask for forgiveness, you get into Heaven (or you get your 72 virgins, or whatever your religion believes).

"If God based my entrance into Heaven on what I DO instead of what I SAY, I'd be totally screwed!"

 

[Zakis]

See this is what I don't get. Why must we think of ourselves as SHIT in the eyes of religion?

I personally believe there are GOOD and there are BAD people. Some lesser extents and more than others. But there is a core to every human on this planet.

I mean with all the different religions as well, how can we even be having this conversation, when in certain religions it is entry to heaven to kill oneself and those around them?

Yet in others it is to live a life of celibacy.

And in others, it is say a few hail marys and all is forgiven?

What truly bugs me about Christianity as a religion is the idea that IF you are gay, and you truly want to repent for your "sins" you CAN. You can literally wash away your sexuality in order to "get into heaven" so to say. So go fuck up your living life, for a promise of the "perfect life". I get the faith argument here, but there is flaws.

Also out of all the creatures in this world, we ARE different, we have the ability to kill one another at a distance.

Nailed it.

 

[tr1age]

"If God based my entrance into Heaven on what I DO instead of what I SAY, I'd be totally screwed!"

THAT. The biggest flaw in organized religion.

 

[tr1age]

See this is what I don't get. Why must we think of ourselves as SHIT in the eyes of religion?

I personally believe there are GOOD and there are BAD people. Some lesser extents and more than others. But there is a core to every human on this planet.

I mean with all the different religions as well, how can we even be having this conversation, when in certain religions it is entry to heaven to kill oneself and those around them?

Yet in others it is to live a life of celibacy.

And in others, it is say a few hail marys and all is forgiven?

What truly bugs me about Christianity as a religion is the idea that IF you are gay, and you truly want to repent for your "sins" you CAN. You can literally wash away your sexuality in order to "get into heaven" so to say. So go fuck up your living life, for a promise of the "perfect life". I get the faith argument here, but there is flaws.

Also out of all the creatures in this world, we ARE different, we have the ability to kill one another at a distance.

To expound on my point more, what if our parents, which I assume most of us, if not a born again something or other, were raised into their religion, chose wrong? Are we fucked?

 

[Keleynal]

Lol, that's a lot all at once, but I did ask for it.

"If God based my entrance into Heaven on what I DO instead of what I SAY, I'd be totally screwed!"

That's a gross oversimplification that ignores many of the fundamentals of Christianity. There are no "magic words" to get you into heaven. Jesus Himself said "Not everyone who cries 'Lord, Lord' will enter the kingdom of heaven." The people Jesus condemned most were the Pharisees- the most religious and "good" people around. So obviously, there's more going on here than just performing rituals and saying the right words.

The most simple explanation is in Romans 10:9- "That if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you shall be saved." Wait, isn't that magic words? No. Consider the consequences of making a verbal contract with Jesus as your Lord, and truly believing in your innermost being that He rose the dead. You're agreeing that He's God and He's in charge.

So, if you say that and mean that and believe that, and then try to say "So I can do whatever I want because God forgives." you are a liar. Jesus isn't your Lord, and you don't truly believe. There's a difference between someone who makes a decision to follow Christ but makes mistakes- that is constantly trying to improve and be more Christlike, and someone who is using Christianity to justify their continuous sin and expects God to act as their personal vending machine of forgiveness- available on demand at their convenience. God is not stupid, He is not mocked, and He does not put up with that kind of foolishness.

You tell me you have faith without any works, but I'll show you my faith by my works, to paraphrase Paul the apostle. "Faith without works is dead," he goes on to say. It's two sides of the same coin- you cannot profess to have faith if you have no works, and works without faith are of no value.

Read the book of Romans, it gives the most complete picture of salvation found anywhere in the Bible.

 

[Keleynal]

To expound on my point more, what if our parents, which I assume most of us, if not a born again something or other, were raised into their religion, chose wrong? Are we fucked?

Certainly not. A lot of people have come to faith whose parents were athiest or some other religion. I thnk you may be asking "What about the people who never hear about Jesus? Are they fucked?" If you weren't, I am now.

The destiny of the unreached (or the innocently ignorant) is hotly debated. Here are some theories I've heard over the years:

1. Yes, they are fucked. No Jesus, no heaven, end of story.
2. No, they all get to go to heaven. It's not their fault and God understands that.
3. At the gate to heaven, St Peter will say, "There's this guy named Jesus you never heard about before, but if you say you like him now, we'll let you in. Otherwise, off to hell with you."
3. If they really want to know God, He will send a missionary and then they will hear and no longer be ignorant.
4. God will reveal Himself to the innocently ignorant through missionaries, nature, special revelation, visions, visits from angels, visits from Jesus Himslef, whatever it takes to give the person a genuine opportunity to know Him.

And that's just among Christians. As for me, I say: 1 is incompatible with God's desire for everyone to be saved, 2 makes no sense- all God would have to do to save all of mankind is never reveal Himself at all, 3 has no support anywhere in the Bible- in fact the Bible clearly states that one's decision to follow Christ must occur before death, and 3 is naive. That leaves me at option 4, which I feel satisfies the requirement that one must know God to be saved, but extends grace to those cut off completely from any kind of contact with the Bible. Nowadays, there are very few who are truly among the "innocently ignorant," and hopefully, as missionaries penetrate deeper into lost or forgotten people groups, those completely ignorant of God will disappear.

And here's where I give my final, cop-out answer: When all is said and done and we stand before God, no one will be able to look Him in the eye and say "You have treated me unjustly." I have no idea how He will sort all this out, but He's the only one who could do it perfectly.