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Christian and Homosexual Stereotypes

Well, it took quite some time, but I read every single post in this thread. I'm very pleased with the discussion, especially with Keleynal's well thought out, devoted posts. Much has been said about the topic, in a much more eloquent manner than I could ever hope to imitate. However, I'll add my opinion all the same.

First off, a bit of backstory. My long time (now ex) girlfriend and I separated because of our differences in faith. She is a very devout Christian, whereas I identify myself as an agnostic. We had a discussion several months ago regarding this difference, so I decided to delve into faith and explore Christianity more thoroughly than I had in the past. Long story short, I did not find Christianity to be right for me.

One of the main issues I had regarding the Christian faith was in fact its stance on Homosexuality. There is, to my understanding, no picking and choosing when it comes to what the Bible says. It is either all or nothing, so being a Christian means believing that Homosexuality is a sin. I have a problem with that. Sexuality accounts for only one of a multitude of things that makes a person who he or she is. As Kel stated earlier, people are the ones who create intensity levels of sin. In God's eyes, all sin is equal.

That being said, I DO believe that some actions and traits are worse than others. It seems that homosexuals are unfairly treated in society. Why should we ostracize homosexuals more than liers? Is it because we have become accustomed to lying? In my opinion, homosexuality, something that does not negatively impact others directly, should not illicit the same criticism as lying or other more dire sins do.

We can only seek to discover and reconcile these issues within ourselves. I tasted God and did not find Him especially good. Whether I shall burn eternally in Hell because of that has yet to be determined, but I like to think that whatever happens post-mortem I can at least say that I attempted to answer the big questions of life as best I could.

(On a side not, Bel, I did see, and listen to, the music you posted. I've heard worse. Don't say that no one ever pays attention to you :) )
 
I thought about this the whole way home today, and I think this is going to be my last word on the question of homosexuality ans sin.

I've tried to quantify it in a clinical, theoretical, intellectual way, and I now think that this entire approach is fundamentally wrong. While I sit and discuss whether its bad or not and why, the fact of the matter is that individuals are in pain and suffering.

That's why homosexuality is wrong. Not because of a clever argument I can tritely lay out in a forum. It is born of hurt and pain, it thrives on hurt and pain, and it's result is more hurt, pain, and death. That is the nature of sin and the truest way of identifying it.

To anyone in a homosexual lifestyle, I say that you do not have to keep perpetuating the cycle of pain. Christ offers true love, true completeness, true acceptance, complete peace. It can be terrifying to trust anyone, even a God that purports to be pure love with such a deep and personal wound. But He's worthy of your trust, He will heal the wound you've been trying to so hard to hide.

To anyone else, I say the same thing. Whatever your personal struggle is. I'm saying it with conviction because I have experienced it personally. Taste and see that God is good. I don't know what else I can say.


Only just saw this post this morning, so sorry about not responding to it, and if you'd like to drop the subject I can respect that. I do however have one last question; where does the comment come from:

That's why homosexuality is wrong. Not because of a clever argument I can tritely lay out in a forum. It is born of hurt and pain, it thrives on hurt and pain, and it's result is more hurt, pain, and death. That is the nature of sin and the truest way of identifying it.

Why do you think homosexuality is born of hurt and pain or thrives on it? I've known numerous homosexuals who have had no more pain in their lives than heterosexuals, and some who have had less. Homosexuality emerges completely naturally and leads to very loving and fulfilling relationships. Unless there's something I'm overlooking in your comment I have to say that I think you are completely missing the mark here. I'd invite you to look past the stereotypes of homosexuals as drug users, abuse victims or HIV patients (of which there are many heterosexuals) and see the very large proportion of them that live happy, healthy, loving lives. More often than not they come from normal backgrounds and have not experienced any trauma in their lives.
 
Why do you think homosexuality is born of hurt and pain or thrives on it? I've known numerous homosexuals who have had no more pain in their lives than heterosexuals, and some who have had less. Homosexuality emerges completely naturally and leads to very loving and fulfilling relationships. Unless there's something I'm overlooking in your comment I have to say that I think you are completely missing the mark here. I'd invite you to look past the stereotypes of homosexuals as drug users, abuse victims or HIV patients (of which there are many heterosexuals) and see the very large proportion of them that live happy, healthy, loving lives. More often than not they come from normal backgrounds and have not experienced any trauma in their lives.

In all honesty, I'm just feeling completely drained by the discussion. I feel like I've said everything I can on the subject and delved as deeply as I can go. There are fundamental differences in my worldview to many of the others here. What appears to be compassion to me is viewed as bigotry by others. Maybe if I were a pastor or theologian I'd be able to put words down that said exactly what I meant and brought complete understanding to everyone (not acceptance of my position necessarily, but understanding). But I'm just a guy living in the midwest that works at an insurance company.

The subline of the forum says "Hold nothing back!" I feel that I've done that here.
 
On the topic of changes or rewrites however, I don't necessarily refer to a deliberate attempt to defraud the Bible's audience, though I do think that such is possible. Rather, I refer to the numerous translations that have been in use, from the earlier languages such as Greek, through Latin and into modern languages such as English, as well as the process of canonization itself. Also, while Protestants hold that matters such as transubstantiation are not in the Bible, the Catholic Church does believe that the evidence is there (e.g. John 6:53-56) so they wouldn't need to add anything else.

Many pastors and individuals who study the Bible routinely check what certain words and phrases in passages are in the original Greek (for New Testamant) in order to try to get a more perfect understanding of what God was trying to say. Some translation, such as the Amplified Version, go so far as to put long, more precise translations right into the text. This doesn't make or easy casual reading, but it can be a good aide for study. Many pastors and theologians learn Greek so they are able to read the Bible in it's original language.

I don't have a Strong's concordance in front of me, so I can't pull up the Greek for that particular passage and see if there are other ways of saying it. However, I can say that when a passage of scripture is being studied thouroughly (conducting exegesis), it is always done a certain way. The passage is considered in a literal context, standing alone in it's own right. The original language text is consulted for this. Then passage is considered in the context of the entire chapter and book it is found in. Finally, the scripture is considered in the context of the Bible as a whole. How does this doctrine fit in and complement the rest of the Biblical narrative?

Exposing that particular passage to this criticism would reveal that, given the whole context of scripture and everything that God had said and done up to that point and after, it is extremely improbable that He is instituting cannaballism. Much more likely, Jesus is speaking metaphorically here, knowing full well that the bread and wine that the disciples bought for their Passover meal was simply bread and wine. Some translations have Jesus saying "Eat my flesh and drink my blood" others say "Eat of this bread and drink of this cup." Both are valid translations of this passage as far as I'm concerned.

The doctrine here is that Jesus was instituting Communion, a ritual by which Christians can remember the sacrifice that Christ made for all of us. The breaking of bread and sharing of wine also has parallels to Jewish marriage tradtion of the time, if I recall correctly. The church is often referred to in the Bible as the bride of Christ and Communion can also be seen as God (Jesus) renewing His covenenant with mankind. I Corinthians 11:17-34 further expounds on the tradition and establishes that it is a sacred rite, not

I believe that this doctrince can be observed both by Christians who take it in a metephorical way and those who insist on a literal interpretation. No violence is done to the actual doctrine of remembering what Christ did on the cross and renewing our covenant with God. Churches have split and wars have been fought over petty divisions like this, it's one of the biggest tragedies of Christianity. We are not unified.

On the issue of languages, changing the meaning of particular words between languages can dramatically change passages. For example, the original Greek word later translated into "virgin" when used to describe Mary, is actually more accurately translated as "young unmarried woman." This is one of the new changes in translation the Catholic Church is introducing in upcoming versions (though they still maintain the theology that she was also a virgin). In regard to canonization, there are actually numerous texts that were considered by many to be a part of the New Testament for hundreds of years after the time of Christ. Through a series of councils and public opinion, new documents were included, old ones were dropped out, and vice versa. This begs the question to me as to how trustworthy this document can be after it has been changed so much over time. While I concede that if God exists He should be able to protect their validity, I don't see the logic in assuming that the documents are accurate first, then using them as evidence that God exists, and subsequently using that as evidence that the documents were accurate in the first place.
There is no doubt that different versions or translations of the Bible are all over the place. In almost every respect though there is no difference or violence done to doctrine, nor poorly chosen word or misworded passage that cannot be exposed through exegesis. I feel it is important that Christians are not lazy in their faith, blindly accepting everything their pastor tells them, or every everything written (word for word) in their KJV Bible. All translations have their strengths and weaknesses. I own at least six different English translations and if I'm confused on the meaning of a passage, I find that reading it from different perspectives promotes understanding.

I can follow what you're saying in regards to Christianity and Judaism, but I'm curious how that then compares with newer religions in the same theological vein, such as Mormonism and Islam. For what reasons do you not also view those as fulfillments of Christianity as Christianity was a fulfillment of Judaism in your view? Their followers would view Christianity then as spurring off of God's plan, why do you think they are wrong?

I look at it by examining the consistency of the beliefs between that religion and Christianity and the nature and character of the particualr god followed by an alternate religion.

Christianity and Judaism are inseperable because the Old and New Testaments are inseparable. One is incomplete without the other. Christ is revealed, in one form or another, in every book of the Old Testmanet. And the Old Testament is explained and fullfilled and quoted throughout the New Testament. It would be dishonest to say the Old Testament is a product of Christianity, followers of Christ weren't called that until Paul took his missionary journey to Antioch.

Also, the God of the Old Testament and the God fo teh New Testament are demonstrably one and the same. There is consistency in His nature and character.

Contrast that with Islam, which does claim to stem from the God of Abraham, who would be my God too. I used to accept that, but the more I learned about Allah, the more I realized that he was not Jehovah. Allah is vengeful and vindictive. He is not defined by love and forgiveness, but by hate and fear. The doctrines of the Koran are not compatible at all with either the New or Old Testament.

I reject Mormonism because they depart from Biblical doctrine on the personhood of Christ. I get cults (offshoots of Christianity) confused sometimes, but I believe their stance is that Jesus was a man who became a god, and He is only one among many who have gone through that process. This is a fundamental departure from a core Biblical tenant. Unlike transubstantiation, it cannot be accepted without completely changing doctrine. Also, Mormons accept the Book of Mormon as equal to the Bible. It also contains many contradictions to the Bible, so I cannot accept it.

As far as whay I chose Christianity over any other religion, I grew up with it so it was a natural choice. A better question is probably why have I stayed a Christian? Christianity is unique among religions in a few important respects-

1. It is relationship and grace based rather than works based. Other religions say "You must reach up to God and get His attention. You must make yourself acceptable to Him. Only then will God accept you." Christianity says "God is reaching down to you; He is striving to gain your attention. He loves and accepts you for who you are. Surrender to His love and be saved." Other religions say "you must do this" Jesus says, "I have done this."

2. Our founder isn't dead. Jesus did more than just claim to be God. He proved it by rising from the dead. People can nit and pick over whether Jesus said this or did that, but as long as the resurrection stands, He is unquestionably God.

I'm sure there's more, but those 2 come quickly to mind.
 
That's why homosexuality is wrong. Not because of a clever argument I can tritely lay out in a forum. It is born of hurt and pain, it thrives on hurt and pain, and it's result is more hurt, pain, and death. That is the nature of sin and the truest way of identifying it.

To anyone in a homosexual lifestyle, I say that you do not have to keep perpetuating the cycle of pain. Christ offers true love, true completeness, true acceptance, complete peace. It can be terrifying to trust anyone, even a God that purports to be pure love with such a deep and personal wound. But He's worthy of your trust, He will heal the wound you've been trying to so hard to hide.
On that bit.... I only experienced hurt and pain because of what I'd seen come from the belief that homosexuality is wrong. Since I came out though, I have no pain due to it. I'm perfectly content with that part of my life at the very least. The only pain that I ever experience now, is due to being targeted based on my sexuality. And that is a human issue, not a spiritual issue. I am who I am, and I'm comfortable with it. I have no more choice in my adoration of the male body than you do in your own life.
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To become a christian, would mean for me to delve into the fiery center of hate and pain. I'd be back in grade school, and I'd be told once again how I should act. I'd be told that my thoughts are dirty and cause me great great pain in the fiery depths. I'd be threatened, mistreated, people would look at me as lesser. If someone is in pain due to being homosexual or due to having homosexual tendencies(Bisexual/Pansexual), then he/she will not gain less pain, or acceptance by joining a religion. It'll just be perpetual, constant, and hidden behind a thin veil. The religious people to whom you revealed yourself too will say things about who you are and they will treat you differently even if you pretend to be straight, because they know that you're one of "them," and even if they believe that it is choice, they know that you WERE one of them. The fact that they have never fallen for this "choice" also makes them feel as if they are better than you, and they will have a sense of pride in that matter. A pride that is undeserved and a pride that only serves to hurt the homosexual person further.
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This also damages other homosexual peoples, not just the one in question. By pretending to be straight and by conforming to the religious hive mind so that you can have a community that pretends that they treat you the same as their straight members, you are reinforcing the belief that homosexuality is a choice. You're giving the bigots more weapons for their arsenal and are perpetuating the hate and bigotry that will be directed against those who didn't decide to pretend that they aren't who they are and join the hive mind. Every action causes ripples of consequence.
 
I can certainly understand why you might feel drained Keleynal, you've been at this for several pages of thread longer than I and have been responding to several different people, which I think you've done very well. I hope you don't take my comments as an attack in any form, I enjoy rigorous debate because it helps me shape my own beliefs, and I feel like the most reliable way to do that is to throw myself into the essence of my arguments. This can come across as a little unforgiving at times, but I find that helps me recognize the parts of my own arguments that I don't like.

I've found this discussion to be very interesting and you've given me a few things to mull over, in particular I'm going to check out this "Amplified Version" of the Bible you mentioned as I'm clearly curious about the various translations. (Also, last quick aside- I completely agree with you about that passage being metaphorical, I simply mentioned it as an example of why they might not have added something to the Bible, regardless of whether we found it convincing they clearly did).

Ultimately I want you to know that, while we might disagree on some things, I believe that you are a good person and have a healthy approach to your beliefs. I appreciate you sharing them with me, in no small part because I recognize my own capacity for error, and as such I cherish opportunities to discover them.
 
@ MoD- I'm sorry you feel that way, but I can understand why you feel that way. I hope you realize that I am in no way advocating that you join a religion, just that you find a Savior- a God that loves and accepts you for who you are.

@ Corvus- I haven't felt attacked in the slightest. It's just been a lot of introspection on top of all the stuff at work on top of having a new baby. I absolutely love apologetics and would be happy to discuss life, the universe, and everything as much as possible. After I take a nap.
 
It's interesting to see another study supporting this theory, when I mentioned epigenetics earlier I was only aware of one study from a while ago so maybe they really are starting to narrow in on it here. Thanks for the link!
 
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