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GW2 I feel Alone...

tr1age

tr1age

Administrator
Staff member
So I wanted to write a quick little rant about GW2 and the feeling of being "alone".

This is the first MMO I have played where I feel like even when I am in a group of 50 people I feel like I am playing the game alone.

I think a lot of this is to be attributed to the certain functionality that was implemented to make grouping "easier".

So you can run around the world and help each other out with anything and everything. This is great when you are with your guild or a pre-determined group, problem is because there are no faction rivalries where you might all of a sudden have to group together to get something done in the open world, when you are working on your character alone that same implementation that makes it easy to work together takes away from the need to communicate with anyone around you.

You can literally do every quest in this game with the people who are also doing them and never say a word to them.

That is issue one.

Issue two them spawns off the aggro in the game. Because of the fact that there is no dedicated tank or healing class and everyone is essentially DPS in the long run of bigger fights, even the fights themselves when working with a group feel like you are playing alone. Sure you can base communication on the idea that you didn't wipe and it was a good take down of a boss, but the fact of the matter is with the random aggro system that still makes little sense to me, you get to the point where even playing with your friends and in groups you are playing solo. Watching your own life, watching your own positioning, and hoping that damn mob doesn't decide to aggro you.

If your buddy is getting hammered by the aggro you can do very little in terms of helping them, especially since the CC system doesn't work on elite mobs. So once again you are playing solo and just hoping those around you know their shit as well.

That is a weird thing when the aggro in a game makes you feel like you are playing solo.

Don't get me started on the guild functionality and the lack of tools to see when someone has last been online or even still plays for that matter.

As the guild leader I have talked to many other guilds and usually the response is similar to this one:

"Looking to merge guilds as it seems like the turnover rate is almost as fast as our recruitment"

Check the reddit guild recruitment forums. People are DYING to merge yet no one wants to give up their guild. So problem #2 arises.

I dunno I just feel like this game needs a better feeling of community before it can EVER get back on its feet. It isn't that it is dropping users it is that those users play for 1-80 then quit. The no subscription base of this game while I like it also tends to make people inherently patch jumpers.

At the end of the day I just want to play with you guys, the community, friends... but this game doesn't have all the tools to even make that happen at times.

Anyway just moaning and bitchin :)

See ya all in game lol
 
GW2 does so much right. The questing is just about perfect. The combat is a pretty good mix of targeted and directional attacks. Dodging synergises perfectly with the combat style. Fast buffs and debuffs do too. The fact that the whole feel of the game is co-operation instead of competition.

The problem is that where they missed the ball they broke aspects of the genre that people want.

People want some conflict and competition. They want some way to achieve big things, even to the point of having an elite class of player or "hardcore, no lifer" type. People make fun of those, but its usually because they cant get to that upper echelon and want to, so they have to try and tear them down. Raiding is wanted by a lot of people for various reasons. Sense of community, competition for being the best of the best. 2 or 3 factions are wanted so you can have an enemy and people on your side.

GW2 was the long awaited departure from WoW that did it right. To me they went too far to step away from WoW like MMOs and if future developers can find the middle ground then we will have the next big thing that just works right.
 
ThatOneGuy said:
GW2 was the long awaited departure from WoW that did it right. To me they went too far to step away from WoW like MMOs and if future developers can find the middle ground then we will have the next big thing that just works right.
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From what it sounds like, Wildstar might be heading in the right direction(apologies I spent all my extra involuntary overtime at work reading up on it). Anyway yeah GW2 pretty much jumped off of a cliff instead of running down the hill so to speak.
 
See t1g I feel that it is on an even deeper level than just competition. The game mechanics while amazing, polished, and feeling right don't help promote team work.

I logged into Archeage even though I am not a big fan at the moment but within seconds someone asked me to help them with a boss and we grouped together and tried to communicate best we could since I speak 0 korean. In an American market where people already get anxiety at having to log INTO an ONLINE game in the small off chance someone wants to say hi, taking away those checksums that force it upon you is making you feel secluded in gameplay.

You have dungeon runs now for speed like CoF that we did last night and instead of talking TO us we were talked AT. "I know MY SHIT, why don't you know YOURS" that is the whole aggro system or lack there of. Instead of working together to keep each other up you are working with yourself to handle yo shit. And while that is fun and rewarding to YOU it isn't to the team thus giving a sense of single player in what should be a multiplayer environment.

And what you said, they did it right and it feels right, that is why it bothers me sooo much that the game isn't living up to potential, because every game after GW2 feels off. But GW2 itself needs some of those old games ideals to feel RIGHT.
 
What is also strange to me is that UO had the same no AGGRO type combat. I mean kinda.. Most damage was aggro if I remember correctly. But there were enough aspects of social in that game where the dungeons were just flavor to go to town and sell your goods. Which meant interaction.
 
Sorry you are feeling alone Tristan. I guess for a pro gamer, and not a casual player like myself, this would get discouraging... especially when you see the potential for it to be so much better with a few tweaks.

As for me, I am pretty happy to just run around exploring and talking to NPCs, though my greatest enjoyment is getting to interact with our guildies of course. Sometimes it gets lonely in-world, even for me, but when that happens I'll usually go craft something, or pop a transformation potion and run around Lion's Arch spouting weird stuff and seeing who responds. I am easily amused, and entertained, so in the long run it's no biggie.

If I get super bored, then like you guys, I'll just go play something else for a while. But I still love GW2, and I've finally started creating some alts (100 years after you guys leveled dozens of alts to 80) LOL.

Hell, I even enjoy playing Pogo, so I'm not qualified to even respond to this thread.

*EVERYTHING REDACTED*
 
tr1age said:
<Lots of blah blah blah>, that is why it bothers me sooo much that the game isn't living up to potential, <other stuff>
Click to expand...

I cut out every part of that quote that didn't fit what I am going to say and here it is: The parts of GW2 that Anet broke is fundamental parts of the gaming experience not just parts of a game that could be eventually fixed. Its the type of thing that makes you feel alone even when playing "along side" other people instead of with them.

I have some thoughts about wildstar, too but I will post them in the wildstar thread.

Oh btw still think GW2 is the best MMO out there.
 
I can't play an MMO for long without other people to play with...dailies or a single dungeon/fractals run is my limit. The way I've always played is with 1-2 other people in the background - even if they're playing another game entirely. When I'm on my own, I still engage with other players. Running around open world, I often find the same people doing similar things, and I'm ok with that.

As for aiding companions, I typically find that AoE condition removal, the immobilise/fear condition, and unique skills like feedback provide ample support to others, even in elite fights (plus its awesome when you finally whittle down the unshakable stacks and knock a boss on their arse with an Overcharged Shot).

I've got loads of stories of strangers unofficially grouping up with me. Yesterday, PsionicFox and I found ourselves doing the entire Thaumanova reactor quest line with a random L15 character (not downlevelled). We did the Cleanup Krewe event after the fire ele event and he thanked us because he'd never done it before.

While I was farming materials/events in Orr, Freakstupi and I started gaining a small retinue of random people. We told them we were just going around doing events and collecting stuff, and within 15 minutes we had a total of seven of us randomly going around together. It only ended when we finished the map and got to Cursed Shore!

So yeah, you make valid points and I don't know if we play differently, or if late night players are simply a different demographic, but I have never had a problem with feeling alone.
 
I've gotten the same feeling as well. I feel pretty lost in GW2 since hitting cap. I've logged back in to do some map completion, and while it's still fun, it gets draggy and makes me want to do dungeons.

When I get into a dungeon I feel like a 5th wheel and pretty useless. Part of that is that I haven't played enough or invested enough time to researching my class to learn the best ways to play or read up on bosses. But in the battle, it just seems like everyone runs in circles and tries to dodge stuff. I miss the feeling of control that I had in encounters in WoW, where the fights were more structured and the roles were more defined.

I think GW2 is a great game, and it does a lot of things right, but it doesn't have all the elements I'm looking for in a new obsession.
 
ThatOneGuy said:
I was even feeling like it was just a bash session on GW2 so I had to add that part before I hit post reply.
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You add it to everything where there is an opinion involved lol this is where west coast clashes with east. We eat debate for breakfast where as west seems to get squeamish from it and thinks it is an attack and there are no positives in the babble. :) Not pointing at you here just an observation.
 
Possibly. I just hate thinking that I put out one side of a thought train and someone could be thinking that is the only side of it I advocate.

Or I am just a waffler.

There I go again.
 
ThatOneGuy said:
Possibly. I just hate thinking that I put out one side of a thought train and someone could be thinking that is the only side of it I advocate.

Or I am just a waffler.

There I go again.
Click to expand...

LOL I used to do that a lot. But that is why I like writing and talking because you can ALWAYS ALWAYS talk about it more. I write as if it were a journal to myself with the intent of another reading it. Tomorrows entry may be different. These are just moments in a bigger picture in my mind. If I kept them all in before I wrote them out I would never write :)
 
I just edit a lot before I hit post reply. When I was writing my blog Therese said the voice I used on it was WAY more polished and precise than the way I conversed in person. I would take probably 30 minutes to put down what I could say in 2. But it would say it the exact way I wanted to.

I need to get back into writing.
 
ThatOneGuy said:
I just edit a lot before I hit post reply. When I was writing my blog Therese said the voice I used on it was WAY more polished and precise than the way I conversed in person. I would take probably 30 minutes to put down what I could say in 2. But it would say it the exact way I wanted to.

I need to get back into writing.
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I have always been told my writing is very stream of conscious :) LEFT VS RIGHT BRAIN WOO WOO!!
 
^^ I feel like I communicate best in writing. I'm more of a "my first draft is the best" kind of a guy. If I lose what I write and try to write it again, I never feel that it is as good as the first time. I do reread and revise and move things around as I write, but once I hit submit, I usually only change spelling errors. (or retcon a grenade pin)
 
Keleynal said:
^^ I feel like I communicate best in writing. I'm more of a "my first draft is the best" kind of a guy. If I lose what I write and try to write it again, I never feel that it is as good as the first time. I do reread and revise and move things around as I write, but once I hit submit, I usually only change spelling errors. (or retcon a grenade pin)
Click to expand...

THE MINUTE I hit enter I think of a million edits and I do them lol
 
I hear you =D

I really miss those old days when you couldn't really solo much. I used to just sign on to DAOC and see what my friends were up to, and then go do that, as you really couldn't do anything alone after a certain point. It forced community in a lot of ways. If you didn't have friends then you had to go to popular spots and try and make friends.

I think GW2 almost got it right, but the leveling experience probably needs to be a lot more linear for the no group model to work and still be social.
 
As some of you may recall, I made an analogy of GW2 to communism in Podcast #21. Humor and alcohol aside, there's actually a legitimate basis to that comparison. Both are idealistic, were well intended, and may have worked out great on paper, but don't pan out that great once you get actual humans involved. Solving a problem is rarely as simple as pivoting to an opposing extreme.

In GW2's case, by removing the "holy trinity" and normalizing class roles SO well, I think they unintentionally removed a critical factor in player identity. I agree that the solo play experience of a "holy trinity" game can be sub-ideal, but I don't think complete despecialization is the answer. There's a lot you give up when you grant everyone the ability to be indistinguishably fully function solo and the game doesn't really give any reason or ability to deviate gameplay style much when in a group vs. not. The game also offers little or no tangible measure of impact that an individual has had on a group. Not in terms of performance, nor more subtle forms such as the simple feeling of satisfaction from knowing you successfully fulfilled your role and were a NECESSARY PART of a larger effort to accomplish a shared goal. People want to know that they mattered. They want to know if they should feel shitty or effin awesome based on whether or not they just f'd up, spaced out, or kicked major ass.

For the sake of contrast, in WoW your role and what you were expected to do and what you did in a raid, dungeon, battleground, or in the world were fundamentally different based on not just YOUR class and spec, but those of the people around you. That's not to say certain dungeons in GW2 go a LOT smoother with a portal-popping mesmer, but I doubt anyone here will argue that the depth and complexity of impact is far from comparable. Even winding up in a "bad pug" in GW2 doesn't have nearly the type of consequence as it does in other games (generally badness in GW2 translates to annoyance, not hard blockers). The interplay of role identity -> responsibility -> accountability -> accomplishment -> mastery is simple yet oh so powerful. And there really is simplicity in knowing you're responsible for X in an encounter (let's assume X is crowd control for this example). Yes, allowing for these sorts of additional degrees of variance does add hefty complexity to gameplay in a holistic view, but it also breaks down expectations/tasks and evaluations at the micro level (as for instance a hunter who is on CC duty; it provides obvious measures for success and failure, and I have a clear well-defined goal to strive for, along with straight-forward feedback to inform how I should feel about how I'm doing along the way, and how much value I should ascribe to my goal once I accomplish it), and adds a TON of opportunity in distinctive gameplay experiences and deeper levels of aspirational mastery and specialization. (Speaking of CC, anyone else remember when they got rid of needing it for a while in the first half of Wrath or so? Those were sad, boring, boring, BORING times...) Anywho...

In a social game, it logically follows that a fair part of a person's sense of purpose, and hence personal value, comes in some way from their interactions with and impact on the people they encounter in-game. Yet somehow GW2 managed to accidentally take the cooperation out of social.

So you know what? You kind of ARE alone. Even if you're in a dungeon with four other people, everything you're doing is still central to YOU--monitoring YOUR health, YOUR DPS, YOUR aggro--you're literally doing EXACTLY the same things as you would when playing alone. Having an encounter be N times harder because you have N people who can all be smashing buttons in parallel does not constitute a truly social or cooperative experience. You may share the common goal of "make stuff die, get loot" but it really doesn't feel different because you aren't really DOING anything different. /whyyouno

Throwing in a few (albeit creative) gymnastic-like mechanic hurdles and jacking up a mob's health and damage output to scale with the number of people in an encounter doesn't make it a cooperative, socially engaging, or meaningful experience. You basically have five people all playing the same mini-game, separately, together. Fun? Sure. More fun than having meaningful roles with well-defined tasks and expectations, interdependence that fosters positive personal value, identity, significance, and purpose? Hell no!

The irony is that by fighting so hard to avoid imbalance and grinding in GW2, the game feels grindy in places it otherwise wouldn't; its gameplay is prematurely plagued by a staleness born out of unintentional yet nevertheless overbearing normativity.

I guess the big question is "can a MMO provide equality without loss of specialization?" and I really do believe it can. That said, know I have a LOT of respect for how difficult designing a system with that sort of equilibrium would be. But only time will tell. Come on, ArenaNet! We haven't given up on you yet!

(Okay, way past bedtime...rants page is dangerous territory at night x_x)
 
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