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Nobody is exceptional

K

Keleynal

Jesus Freak
According to an op ed written by Vladamir Putin, no one is exceptional, especially not Americans. He writes,


My working and personal relationship with President Obama is marked by growing trust. I appreciate this. I carefully studied his address to the nation on Tuesday. And I would rather disagree with a case he made on American exceptionalism, stating that the United States’ policy is “what makes America different. It’s what makes us exceptional.” It is extremely dangerous to encourage people to see themselves as exceptional, whatever the motivation. There are big countries and small countries, rich and poor, those with long democratic traditions and those still finding their way to democracy. Their policies differ, too. We are all different, but when we ask for the Lord’s blessings, we must not forget that God created us equal. (Putin, 2013)

While I think that humility is an important trait for both individual's and countries to possess, there is also room for personal and national pride. I think America has plenty to be proud of, and that we are exceptional as a country and a society in a lot of ways. Not in every way, certainly, but America has done a lot of incredible things that I would consider to be exceptional.

What do you think? Is it dangerous to encourage people to see themselves as exceptional?

(Read the whole op ed here- http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/12/o...caution-from-russia-on-syria.html?ref=opinion)
 
Huh. I really don't get into political debates and all that stuff, but this statement was actually really intriguing. In the sense of Political Power, I can 100% understand Putin's response in saying "don't feel so entitled, it makes you look foolish". In a sense, it's true.

But on the other hand, it's hard to say "I'm not special". We all like to think we're special, bring something different to the table than the person next to us, but in the grand scheme, Americans are not entitled to anything more than anyone else (on the grand scheme of existing within the world).

Just a neat thought process to consider, both on the high political level, as well as a social experiment.
 
OOOOO very good topic. We can easily get off topic here and i'll try and stay on topic.

Yes, We are equal however people are exceptional. It is different for what you are speaking of because this is such a general topic.

Usain Bolt is an exceptional sprinter when i don't think i can stand on equal footing with him. However those who run with him share an *equal* interest in loving the sport.

So this topic can be very vague until brought down to specifics, politics, armies, red line = dick measuring ribbon as Jon Stewart put it.
 
Gyoin said:
Huh. I really don't get into political debates and all that stuff, but this statement was actually really intriguing. In the sense of Political Power, I can 100% understand Putin's response in saying "don't feel so entitled, it makes you look foolish". In a sense, it's true.

But on the other hand, it's hard to say "I'm not special". We all like to think we're special, bring something different to the table than the person next to us, but in the grand scheme, Americans are not entitled to anything more than anyone else (on the grand scheme of existing within the world).

Just a neat thought process to consider, both on the high political level, as well as a social experiment.
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I don't think exceptional and entitled necessarily go hand in hand, but they do to a certain extent. An exceptional athlete is entitled to all the medals they win. Is it wrong for the world's fastest runner to consider themselves an exceptional runner? If they are asked to endorse a sports drink, wouldn't they be entitled to higher compensation than me based on their achievements?

I think this "no one is exceptional" idea is very communist. I'm starting to think Putin is a Red.
 
Keleynal said:
I don't think exceptional and entitled necessarily go hand in hand, but they do to a certain extent. An exceptional athlete is entitled to all the medals they win. Is it wrong for the world's fastest runner to consider themselves an exceptional runner? If they are asked to endorse a sports drink, wouldn't they be entitled to higher compensation than me based on their achievements?

I think this "no one is exceptional" idea is very communist. I'm starting to think Putin is a Red.
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I guess I'm looking at it in a much broader sense. For every "Athlete", there's how many people that are just average? Y'know? I have nothing wrong with average.

On a case by case basis, sure, we can make claims that "This person is special, that person isn't". I can't deny that at all. But to say as a blanket statement "It's what makes us exceptional" comes off as pompous and entitled. That we are above everyone else. And to an extent, sure, that may be true. But in a political sense, that's an awfully powerful thing to say, especially from the president.
 
By all means, we could use more humility in our foreign policy. But this is all a bit rich coming from Putin.
 
Gyoin said:
I guess I'm looking at it in a much broader sense. For every "Athlete", there's how many people that are just average? Y'know? I have nothing wrong with average.

On a case by case basis, sure, we can make claims that "This person is special, that person isn't". I can't deny that at all. But to say as a blanket statement "It's what makes us exceptional" comes off as pompous and entitled. That we are above everyone else. And to an extent, sure, that may be true. But in a political sense, that's an awfully powerful thing to say, especially from the president.
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If people exert themselves to at least a small degree, I think that most find they are exceptional or special in some way. Whether than exceptionality or specialness is valued by anyone else is another matter. Like the guy that can make his eyebrows dance really well. It seems trivial next to the genius that invents stuff (cough Razulian cough), but they still have something special about them.
 
Sorry, I the "everyone's a snowflake" debate really does nothing for me. Maybe I'm too cynical in that viewpoint. We're all meatbags at the end of the day who will, inevitably, die. By the time we do, we may impact others and make contributions to society, blah blah etc etc, but in reality we're just taking up space until our time has come.

Also, now I feel like I have strayed this off topic. In the sense of politics/foreign policies/government/whatever, there just seems to be a tinge of... wrongness in the flat statement. But maybe that's just me.
 
Gyoin said:
Sorry, I the "everyone's a snowflake" debate really does nothing for me. Maybe I'm too cynical in that viewpoint. We're all meatbags at the end of the day who will, inevitably, die. By the time we do, we may impact others and make contributions to society, blah blah etc etc, but in reality we're just taking up space until our time has come.

Also, now I feel like I have strayed this off topic. In the sense of politics/foreign policies/government/whatever, there just seems to be a tinge of... wrongness in the flat statement. But maybe that's just me.
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I don't see any need to keep the discussion tied to politics.

The exact statement is "It is extremely dangerous to encourage people to see themselves as exceptional, whatever the motivation."
So according to him, the danger isn't thinking that YOU are exceptional, but making others feel that way. Apparently, he's not a fan of positive motivation.
 
Interesting topic. I think we need to make sure to take his comment in of context, because while he didn't say "it's dangerous to encourage all people of a specific country to see themselves as exceptional' he was responding to a comment by President Obama that was exactly that - claiming that Americans are exceptional by virtue of being American. So I personally think my quote is the most likely intended interpretation of Putin's remarks.

And from that perspective I find myself mostly in agreement with Putin - I think it IS dangerous to encourage an entire country population to presume to be exceptional merely on the basis of having been born in said country.

Plus, I've met an awful lot of Americans in my 48 years on this earth, and I can promise you they weren't all exceptional! :p
 
"America is not the world’s policeman. Terrible things happen across the globe, and it is beyond our means to right every wrong. But when, with modest effort and risk, we can stop children from being gassed to death, and thereby make our own children safer over the long run, I believe we should act. That’s what makes America different. That’s what makes us exceptional. With humility, but with resolve, let us never lose sight of that essential truth." ......Makes it sound a little different to me when the whole thing is there.
 
Keleynal said:
If people exert themselves to at least a small degree, I think that most find they are exceptional or special in some way. Whether than exceptionality or specialness is valued by anyone else is another matter. Like the guy that can make his eyebrows dance really well. It seems trivial next to the genius that invents stuff (cough Razulian cough), but they still have something special about them.
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Well you just had to summon me, didn't you?

Oh well, I'll share my two cents.
America and Russia have been competitors in quite a lot of things, and most stuff that Putin says comes down to "We are better than America!". It's only natural for him to oppose Obama. If it's good or bad, I can't say for sure.

That aside: America is exceptional in science (MIT = #1 university according to a list I saw today), Russia has exceptional vodka and Belgium has exceptional french fries (or chocolates). All I want to say is that if you say that your country is exceptional then it's like "my team is better than your team!". So I wouldn't say that a country is exceptional, you'll end up in an endless discussion somehow.

If we're talking about people then it's very dangerous to say that you're exceptional, you'll start thinking too big of yourself and you'll crash. I'd rather say "I'm above average". I myself had such an occurence a couple of years ago, I saw myself too big and I stumbled; suddenly my school grades fell.


PS: Don't exert yourself too much, it has side effects.
 
Belief in American exceptionalism was one of the primary drivers of our imperialism. And now, of course, our empire is showing signs of atrophy, as all empires inevitably do. Pride before the fall and all that.
 
We are NOT all created equal, that's demonstrably untrue. As long as genetic differences and upbringing differences create different opportunities for people, there will be inequality. As long as population traits are normally distributed, by definition, there will be an exceptional few. America contains exceptional people who do exceptional things but as population, America is not exceptional on any number of metrics.
 
Everyone has the potential to be exceptional and I think awarding people because they are exceptional is a great tool to inspire and generate national pride.
However, when people start claiming that the way they are exceptional trumps somebody else's...then I have a problem. If all you are ever known for is some great achievement that you dick measure about, I think that is rather sad.
Just my 2 cents.
 
Diremongoose said:
We are NOT all created equal, that's demonstrably untrue. As long as genetic differences and upbringing differences create different opportunities for people, there will be inequality. As long as population traits are normally distributed, by definition, there will be an exceptional few. America contains exceptional people who do exceptional things but as population, America is not exceptional on any number of metrics.
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Everyone is equal in that everyone has the same intrinsic value, but equal does not mean "the same." Of course everyone is different and have advantages and disadvantages. Those have (or SHOULD have) no effect on their basic human value and rights, which are (again, SHOULD) be the equal across the board.
 
It is ok to say that you are exceptional. If you really are. Most people simply say they are exceptional, even though they are not. And then you get a false sense of security. And about National Pride and America:

Please name me one thing that was done by americans ALONE.
This means without the help of foreign scientists, just in case you want to say first person on the moon.
 
Euchale said:
Please name me one thing that was done by americans ALONE.
This means without the help of foreign scientists, just in case you want to say first person on the moon.
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Actually, due to the nature of our country, *all* American scientists are foreign scientists. I'm including Native American scientists in this as well because they got dragged into this mess like the rest of us; they just didn't have to travel as far. The strength of the United States stems from its diversity; the ability of the people who come here, or people who are born to the people who come here, to equal something greater than their sum. Just as it does in nature, diversity creates both strength and strife; we fight each other and in so doing we hold ourselves back, but when we are able to come together it catapults us forward.

America is no longer exceptional in this regard.

Due in a large part to globalization, many areas in the world are achieving greater levels of diversity, and just as it went here they are also experiencing strength and strife. I for one consider this to be a good thing; a diverse and interconnected Earth will be much better off in the long run than having one or a handful of countries achieving it.

For reasons that were so clearly laid out in the Newsroom clip, I do not think the US is the greatest country on Earth, though to be honest I couldn't label any of them as being such. Just as it is with individuals, they're all exceptional in their own way, by virtue of being different. There is a danger to embracing the idea of American Exceptionalism, just as there is a danger to embracing the idea of your own exclusive exceptional status; it has a history of leading to Social Darwinism. "Survival of the Fittest", master races, all that nonsense is a perversion of evolutionary theory that stems from the idea that you alone are exceptional. History is full of examples of those who considered themselves to be the lone exceptional people falling from glory, and those who were considered to not be exceptional rising to it.

Putin is only half-right in his statement; we should consider ourselves to be exceptional, but we shouldn't ignore the exceptional nature of others. It's often difficult to face what is different; terrorism is a horrific example of what the rigidity present in the human psyche can bring, but that is an extreme on a scale that we all fall on. Assuming we are all the same is quite simply denial. Only by facing each other, acknowledging our differences, and learning to work *with* them instead of *against* them can we achieve humanity's potential.
 
There's no doubting that America is, and has been, on the decline in most respects for several decades. I'd point to the Vietnam era as about when things really started sliding.

It terms of stability and prosperity, we are still way ahead of the game though. Taking the world as a whole, I'd say we are still the exception rather than the rule.
 
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