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The english language (or the lack thereof)

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Euchale

Crazy German Guy
As most of you probably know I am not a native speaker. And for most time it doesn´t bother me if people make grammar or vocabulary errors. But there are two things that make me really confused.
1. your, You´re, You are and there, their, they´re
Is it really so difficult to write the right one? Come on. I don´t know how it is for english speaking people but sometimes sentences make no sense for me until I get that their is ment instead of there.
2. I write how I speak
This is something I mainly see in comments on Youtube or on Facebookposts (last thing I usually don´t see as I don´t use Facebook much)
Are there so many people that simply don´t care what they write? Or is the education system really this bad?
Also the write how I speak I see mainly from Native English speakers.

Now some may argue that English is a difficult language and this might be true to some extend, there are most likely a few languages that are easier than English, but the majority is more difficult. I can give hands on experience since I work with a lot of Asian people, and usually they learn English first and have a very hard time with it. But as soon as they start with German/French/Spanish they say, that English was actually pretty easy compared to these.

Also it is almost impossible to get around proper English if you watch news or read articles online. Everything is in English.

So enough ranting for today. Let´s get back to work.

grammar-the-difference-between-knowing-your-shit-and-knowing-youre-shit.jpg
 
People are lazy. That's why they don't try enough to use the right spelling of the word.
 
I know what you mean, but it doesn't bother me that much honestly, I mean I'm not a native speaker either and (at least in writing) I'm much better than some people I've encountered over the years and that's just sad but then again some people just don't care so there's that.

oh another thing, I know how many people say english is hard.. well it's not, it's pretty straight forward mostly unless you want to study and major into very some serious english literature stuff. And to help even further to make it easier to learn, yes EVERYTHING is in english nowadays so you either learn or learn. All that said, there are some people who really have a hard time learning it like my wife as an example, but that's just because she just doesn't try and even like that she understands some english... now try putting something in say... German in front of her... not the same thing.

I'd think difficult languages would be (in no specific order) Japanese and Chinese (mostly the Asian ones are very hard), German to some extent, Spanish (saying tengo un gato en mis pantalones or Taco Taco doesn't count) and the Slavic languages.

Now, I believe that there are families withing languages let me explain, I speak spanish so, I can somewhat understand Portuguese, Italian and french and let me emphasize SOMEWHAT because I definitely can't speak those languages but I can understand what a phrase means or grasp the context.
Same thing happens with slavic languages I've been told that if you speak Swedish you could somewhat communicate with people that speak Norwegian or Danish. And from what I've seen English is somehow related to german in a minor way.

So, how easily you can learn another language depends heavily on if you are crossing from a different "Family language" to another or just staying within it.

Then again this could all be bullshit being blended inside my mind... don't know.

/have a beer /cheers
 
Thovarisk said:
I'd think difficult languages would be (in no specific order) Japanese and Chinese (mostly the Asian ones are very hard), German to some extent, Spanish (saying tengo un gato en mis pantalones or Taco Taco doesn't count) and the Slavic languages.
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I tried learning japanese once. Vocabulary and grammar are easy in my opinion but learning Kanji was too difficult for me. I am unable to learn "pictures".

Thovarisk said:
And from what I've seen English is somehow related to german in a minor way.
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They are, since they are both west germanic languages (together with dutch). Same goes for slavic languages they are east germanic languages.


I am not talking from people that are not english natives when it comes to writing in english. I can understand if they have problems. But native speakers? I will not say that the German that I write is perfect, but I am at least trying. For me writing properly is a sign of respect for both the person who read it and also to the language you are using.

Maybe I am just oversensitive on this topic.
 
You are not over sensitive. We have a few grammar nazis around here. I am one.
 
lol closer. Look at the latest podcast to see how awesome my chin pubes are right now.
 
I'm actually really interested in the English language and how it develops and changes over time. I went to college intending to become an English teacher, but I somehow ended up in the insurance business...

Anyway, I've read some interesting articles recently (that I will try to dig up again) about the effect that netspeak and texting are having on the English language. From what I've read, experts really aren't that concerned anymore that the language as a whole is going to change or become more lazy. Instead, it seems that netspeak and texting are becoming their own language set that is used in those certain situations. Kind of like a specific jargon that is used on the job but nowhere else. Of course, some young people let their netspeak and texting language bleed over to real life communications, but on a professional level that sort of language isn't considered appropriate.

So I have no problem with "lazy" language being used for texting or informal emails. The audience is the most important thing- the person receiving the message needs to be able to understand the meaning. I'll still use my apostrophes and avoid saying lol every other word, but that's more personal style than snobbery on my part.

On a side note- I find it very interesting the ways that netspeak is evolving as it's own language. Consider "lol" that originally meant "laugh out loud." It is now used in all sorts of situations as a sort of catch-all for positive or humorous feelings like "Man I'm tired, lol". Chances are, you aren't actually laughing about being tired, it's more of a signal about your attitude at the time. /endnerdnote
 
Keleynal said:
So I have no problem with "lazy" language being used for texting or informal emails. The audience is the most important thing- the person receiving the message needs to be able to understand the meaning. I'll still use my apostrophes and avoid saying lol every other word, but that's more personal style than snobbery on my part.
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Its not about the apostrophe, its more about the meaning of the word. Examples:
There house is a really nice house.
Please give me youre Phone.

And yes I am hurting myself right now for writing these two things down.
 
Euchale said:
Its not about the apostrophe, its more about the meaning of the word. Examples:
There house is a really nice house.
Please give me youre Phone.

And yes I am hurting myself right now for writing these two things down.
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I hear you. Some of that can definitely be chalked up to laziness and some of it to spellcheckers and word predictors that have no eye to context. I operate in a more professional setting where people take care in their communications since poor communication can be very costly in a business setting. The individuals struggling with basic grammar will either learn that or have tough careers ahead of them.
 
I was actually just talking about this with someone yesterday. Have you ever seen Cloud Atlas? There is a sort of tribal/futuristic part where they speak this severely broken english which has become it's own dialect. I'm afraid this is the direction we are heading. Grammar has become more of a suggestion then a rule these days, and slang prevails more often then not. I would argue that part of the reason is the 'melting pot' nature of our contries. I live in NYC and there are over 200 languanges spoken here.. and it isn't a huge city, just really dense. It's hard to maintain proper English under these conditions. Don't even get me started on the education system. Yeah, just my 2 cents.
 
The fear of losing "proper English" is pretty humorous to me. Basically, we are saying that we like the way we speak and don't want to see it change. That's only natural, but not very realistic and really just a matter of perspective. Most people seem to think they speak "proper English" even if their language is completely different. Many English people don't think ANY American speaks "proper English."

If the apocolyptic scenario you described were to occur, "proper English" wouldn't be dead, just changed. Remember, the important thing is that the message is received. If speaking with perfect grammar would cause confusion to your message's recipient, then it isn't "proper" at all. You may have to resort to slang, jargon, grunts, or bodily functions. We may recoil at the thought, but that's just because of our perspective and preferred way of communicating.
 
Keleynal said:
The fear of losing "proper English" is pretty humorous to me. Basically, we are saying that we like the way we speak and don't want to see it change. That's only natural, but not very realistic and really just a matter of perspective. Most people seem to think they speak "proper English" even if their language is completely different. Many English people don't think ANY American speaks "proper English."

If the apocolyptic scenario you described were to occur, "proper English" wouldn't be dead, just changed. Remember, the important thing is that the message is received. If speaking with perfect grammar would cause confusion to your message's recipient, then it isn't "proper" at all. You may have to resort to slang, jargon, grunts, or bodily functions. We may recoil at the thought, but that's just because of our perspective and preferred way of communicating.
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Well, the issue is English becoming a more difficult language to learn. Without consistent grammar/sentence structure it will become difficult for non native speakers to learn and communicate with us, which I feel is very important.
 
Crake said:
Well, the issue is English becoming a more difficult language to learn. Without consistent grammar/sentence structure it will become difficult for non native speakers to learn and communicate with us, which I feel is very important.
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Yes, it's extremely confusing with all the exceptions to every rule. I screw things up on a regular basis. Lately, I've been misusing "take" and "bring." Which really annoys my wife who calls me out on it, which really annoys me. Especially because she's right.

If you are a glutton for punishment, give this poem a read:

English Pronunciation
by G. Nolst Trenité

Dearest creature in creation,
Study English pronunciation.
I will teach you in my verse
Sounds like corpse, corps, horse, and worse.
I will keep you, Suzy, busy,
Make your head with heat grow dizzy.
Tear in eye, your dress will tear.
So shall I! Oh hear my prayer.
Just compare heart, beard, and heard,
Dies and diet, lord and word,
Sword and sward, retain and Britain.
(Mind the latter, how it’s written.)
Now I surely will not plague you
With such words as plaque and ague.
But be careful how you speak:
Say break and steak, but bleak and streak;
Cloven, oven, how and low,
Script, receipt, show, poem, and toe.
Hear me say, devoid of trickery,
Daughter, laughter, and Terpsichore,
Typhoid, measles, topsails, aisles,
Exiles, similes, and reviles;
Scholar, vicar, and cigar,
Solar, mica, war and far;
One, anemone, Balmoral,
Kitchen, lichen, laundry, laurel;
Gertrude, German, wind and mind,
Scene, Melpomene, mankind.
Billet does not rhyme with ballet,
Bouquet, wallet, mallet, chalet.
Blood and flood are not like food,
Nor is mould like should and would.
Viscous, viscount, load and broad,
Toward, to forward, to reward.
And your pronunciation’s OK
When you correctly say croquet,
Rounded, wounded, grieve and sieve,
Friend and fiend, alive and live.
Ivy, privy, famous; clamour
And enamour rhyme with hammer.
River, rival, tomb, bomb, comb,
Doll and roll and some and home.
Stranger does not rhyme with anger,
Neither does devour with clangour.
Souls but foul, haunt but aunt,
Font, front, wont, want, grand, and grant,
Shoes, goes, does. Now first say finger,
And then singer, ginger, linger,
Real, zeal, mauve, gauze, gouge and gauge,
Marriage, foliage, mirage, and age.
Query does not rhyme with very,
Nor does fury sound like bury.
Dost, lost, post and doth, cloth, loth.
Job, nob, bosom, transom, oath.
Though the differences seem little,
We say actual but victual.
Refer does not rhyme with deafer.
Fe0ffer does, and zephyr, heifer.
Mint, pint, senate and sedate;
Dull, bull, and George ate late.
Scenic, Arabic, Pacific,
Science, conscience, scientific.
Liberty, library, heave and heaven,
Rachel, ache, moustache, eleven.
We say hallowed, but allowed,
People, leopard, towed, but vowed.
Mark the differences, moreover,
Between mover, cover, clover;
Leeches, breeches, wise, precise,
Chalice, but police and lice;
Camel, constable, unstable,
Principle, disciple, label.
Petal, panel, and canal,
Wait, surprise, plait, promise, pal.
Worm and storm, chaise, chaos, chair,
Senator, spectator, mayor.
Tour, but our and succour, four.
Gas, alas, and Arkansas.
Sea, idea, Korea, area,
Psalm, Maria, but malaria.
Youth, south, southern, cleanse and clean.
Doctrine, turpentine, marine.
Compare alien with Italian,
Dandelion and battalion.
Sally with ally, yea, ye,
Eye, I, ay, aye, whey, and key.
Say aver, but ever, fever,
Neither, leisure, skein, deceiver.
Heron, granary, canary.
Crevice and device and aerie.
Face, but preface, not efface.
Phlegm, phlegmatic, ass, glass, bass.
Large, but target, gin, give, verging,
Ought, out, joust and scour, scourging.
Ear, but earn and wear and tear
Do not rhyme with here but ere.
Seven is right, but so is even,
Hyphen, roughen, nephew Stephen,
Monkey, donkey, Turk and jerk,
Ask, grasp, wasp, and cork and work.
Pronunciation (think of Psyche!)
Is a paling stout and spikey?
Won’t it make you lose your wits,
Writing groats and saying grits?
It’s a dark abyss or tunnel:
Strewn with stones, stowed, solace, gunwale,
Islington and Isle of Wight,
Housewife, verdict and indict.
Finally, which rhymes with enough,
Though, through, plough, or dough, or cough?
Hiccough has the sound of cup.
My advice is to give up!!!

(taken from http://www.thepoke.co.uk/2011/12/23/english-pronunciation/)
 
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