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United Police States of Obama

Bald I know I am quoting a lot but please read my above posts. They talk in great detail about "congress" an also how Obama has not one above and beyond on bypassing it any more than others.


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Bald I know I am quoting a lot but please read my above posts. They talk in great detail about "congress" an also how Obama has not one above and beyond on bypassing it any more than others.


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I have read them and i can see the comparison. I consider myself a Republican but i did not like Bush. I liked his father but not the son. He did a lot of things i was not happy about.

I have seen your points and you have seen mine. I have no doubt that i didn't change anyones opinion. My opinion stays the same on this topic as well.

Thank you for having a good discussion.
 
You guys have my admiration for wading into this. I enjoy a good debate, but I avoid politics because there is just so much STUFF. Recent events, historical events, opinions, documents, perspectives... I can't keep it all straight.

I will say that I'm not happy at all with America becoming more liberal. Obama didn't start that, he's riding the trend, and while I think some off what he has done has been destructive in the long term (health care comes to mind), I think the country will still be here and recognizable asAmerica when he leaves office. Then we will debate the new President's policies, either blaming Obama to the new President depending on his and your political views.

I think America is very resilient, there's lots of room for the political pendulum to swing both ways. Hopefully, more people will get upset (or excited) enough to engage their elected officials and vote. I still think this crazy experiment of self-governance can work, even if it does get really wacky sometimes.
 
Conservatives worry we're becoming more liberal, liberals worry we're becoming more conservative. Perhaps things are changing in different ways that are contradictory at times. And changing in different places in different ways.

And everyone, this is rants, things are supposed to get heated. If you can't handle that without getting personally offended this ain't the right place for you. Say what you wanna say and don't take it too personally!
 
Oh boy politics, as old as life itself. Do you know you can actually track political intrigue in various primate troops? As long as there is more than one person alive you'll have disagreement and compromise, and you'll never get everyone to be happy. Conservatives and liberals (the ones in the wings) are idealists. You know what the difference is between republicans and democrats? Republicans believe that no one needs to be saved, and democrats believe they can save everyone. Truth is, sometimes people need to be saved, and you're never going to save everyone.

Politics in the US have become increasing polarized over the years, and you know what? It's not the politicians' fault, its ours. Look at this discussion, it embodies what's wrong with the US. Passion overrides pragmatism and what you're left with is "I'M RIGHT, YOU'RE WRONG" and that's what people vote. Politicians are slimy, not necessarily because they're bad people but because its their job. They're our representatives, they represent us.

Why do they fight each other to a standstill? Because we tell them to, we love it. We don't vote to improve the country we vote for the guy who's going to fight the other guy tooth and nail. It doesn't matter if it leads to the government defaulting on its loans or no new laws ever getting passed. The other guy won, and in our existential horror at that fact we're willing to burn the world down around us to fight them.

I've read some of the arguments that have cropped up in this thread so far, and you know what? They're crap. The government hasn't passed a law in decades with the potential to "destroy" this country. I don't even know if it could. We've had democrats in charge and we've had republicans in charge and we're still here. They've both given us good times and bad. The best have come from when we worked together, and admittedly some of the worst as well.

As long as we carve out our "platforms" in stone and label each other them and us, we're going to suck as a country (which we do, btw).

Oh and you Europeans on the server who get all giddy at my above comment, stfu, you don't shit rainbows either. We're all stuck in our ugly brown poo together.

No one is willing to say "I was wrong" anymore (sometimes its hard for me to do so as well, I also crap brown) or even just "maybe you're right." We listen to the news and politicians, and read the magazines and websites that tell us what we want to hear and either ignore everything else or scream bloody murder that they're all biased lying bastards. We don't vote for things we vote against them, and we're never willing to give something new a try, and when I say new I don't mean "liberal" I mean a new idea; conservatives can have those too you know. Rather than roll up our sleeves and help out with shoveling the shit when we lose we just scream and stamp and throw it at the people we "HAAAAAAAAATE!"*tantrum*

Guess we haven't come very far from the other primates yet.
 
Cheer up; the opposite is true. The most liberal party we have is center-right.

I will throw my hat in and say that the common thread of what is missing here is "leadership". There are republicans that have been good leaders and democrats who share the same attribute.

Whether or not anyone likes Bill Clinton, he did in fact negotiate the biggest "fix" of welfare ever. That it's been mostly undone recently is disturbing, but that's not the point. And looking way back at Richard Nixon, of all people. He was a champion of clean air, raising the minimum wage, and civil rights enforcement and ultimately ended the Vietnam war.

More African-Americans called themselves Republicans during the Eisenhower years because A) He demanded desegregation become law and B) Democrats at the time blocked passage of key civil rights legislation. What's the difference between the "Dixiecrats" and the Tea Party? Maybe not as much as we'd like to think. (Though I take exception to what Tea Party has come to mean as defined by the media.) Note the words "beset by an oppressive federal government" in the Wikipedia post. Sound familiar? It doesn't make either party right or wrong. It just means that political parties have little real "definition" of what to expect if they are elected. These are stereotypes and they're just damn ugly.

I maintain that this is not about ideology alone, but about a bunch of politicians who work "by the public pole numbers" or vote based on the most powerful "lobbyists". Nor should it be solely about how to get re-elected. Leadership demands that some will be unhappy, and that's where I have a problem... that politicians today are too afraid to not please the public. Both houses of Congress are guilty of this and have recent presidents this has been slowly increasing over time. Nobody was more pissed than I when Bush, whom I supported, passed the biggest debt expansion with the Prescription Drug program. It's healthy for Obama supporters to see some things that give them pause as well.

In the case of Obama, why he feels the need to raise millions for a direct ad campaign to the public for his causes is a complete mystery. We are not a direct democracy. We are a representative democracy. It was designed this way so that those supposedly "smarter and wiser" than the average Joe would lead us, like parents, even when we're screaming "No I don't wanna. I don't like spinach." We get our chance to "throw the bums out" every 2, 4 or 6 years. See how California has done with it's Propositions and you'll see why the country cannot be run that way.

But the degrading of America in my opinion has been mostly in the media. The substitute for churches and synagogues, namely the MSNBC's and FOXNEWS of the world are the popular man's new religion... gives them something to believe in... fervently. Leaders, real leaders need to pretend they don't exist and just "act" using the balance of power as it was designed to be used by the founding fathers.

What's it going to take? I don't know, but it's going to have to change, and with 300 million guns out there, people may die (again) to change it. Has happened, could happen again.

Peace to all!
 
"We interrupt this political ramble with a friendly reminder about America's Preamble! :)"
What can I say... I'm a tree hugging independent and I loved Schoolhouse Rock.

 
And everyone, this is rants, things are supposed to get heated. If you can't handle that without getting personally offended this ain't the right place for you. Say what you wanna say and don't take it too personally!
I know a few people but there are times when people just need to keep their mouth shut!

I agree with you to some point Kel, I hate the way America is becoming more liberal. I can also agree that Omaba didn't start it and he is riding the trend but is also the train operator pushing the throttle into overdrive.
 
Cheer up; the opposite is true. The most liberal party we have is center-right.
The general march has been to the left, especially on social issues. Separation of church and state, abortion availability, same sex issues, drugs, and now apparently gun control are all issues that have been sliding liberal for quite some time. No one President or party gets all the blame for this since it has been happening under the watch of almost every modern President. Left leaning (putting it mildly) Presidents, like Obama, do push it more than other more than the more right leaning, like GW Bush. However, it's just a distinction of degrees.

This is an overall societal trend, not a purely Presidential issue. Unless there is a significant paradigm shift among the American people as a whole, I don't see the trend reversing or even slowing any time soon.

As I said earlier, America is resilient and things could eventually swing the other way. I'm not holding onto too much hope for my lifetime though.
 
I'm too sick for this. Why can't everyone be happy and get along like in my imagination?

Seriously though, I'm against judging administrations while they're still going. We won't be able to truly judge the effects of Obama's presidency for another decade, in my opinion. The main reason is because modern politics is so complicated. It's my belief that the overly complicated system is actually the base cause of most American's dissatisfaction with our current government overall. Right now, government isn't very accessible for the average civilian. Like Zakis said, we need to (in a way) tear it down and build it back up again. My hope is a government free from division, where representatives truly represent the people and the people take action to make sure they're opinion is heard. It's a two way street. Politicians should work for the people, but we have to be politically active as well. I have a lot of faith in the United States though. No matter what happens I think we'll eventually emerge better for it.
 
A world where everyone is happy and gets along is one where everyone shares the same opinions are beliefs about everything. If that happens naturally (never does) it's utopia. If it's enforced, it's a tyranny (happens all the time).
 
A world where everyone is happy and gets along is one where everyone shares the same opinions are beliefs about everything. If that happens naturally (never does) it's utopia. If it's enforced, it's a tyranny (happens all the time).

How did you know that my imagination is an oppressive dictatorship?
 
Here's a good case in point of the problem I have with Obama.

He is inserting himself into a state issue and getting the federal government involved where it does not need to be. I understand and respect that he has passionate, personal views, but he should not be using the bully pulpit to insert himself into fights that are not the business of the federal government.
 
Here's a good case in point of the problem I have with Obama.

He is inserting himself into a state issue and getting the federal government involved where it does not need to be. I understand and respect that he has passionate, personal views, but he should not be using the bully pulpit to insert himself into fights that are not the business of the federal government.

I have to disagree with you here Kel. I'm not against states' rights, but I think the federal government has a responsibility to step in and protect the rights of minorities. Both the California legislature and judiciary legalized gay marriage, which was later overturned by Proposition 8 (which was technically illegal interestingly enough). It can thus be argued that a minority population of California is being victimized by the majority. Since we do not live in a complete democracy with majority rule, it is the responsibility of the federal government in such situations to protect the rights of the minority against the majority. It's no different from when the federal government had to do it for interracial couples as well.
 
The civil war didnt mandate that civil liberties were a federal issue. Obviously not, since civil rights were fought for on a state by state basis. The civil war settled the issue of state cessation.

Our country was built on the principal of federalism- a division of powers between the state and national government. Over time, the national government has been taking more and more control away from states all to willing to shirk their responsibility and accept federal money to fund inefficient and broken programs. Education is a perfect example of that.

If Obama was against gay marriage and issuing a brief in defense of Prop 8, I would still be very much against him getting involved in a state matter. Once there is precedent for the federal government swooping in and trying to influence things on a state level, where will the power of the national government begin and end? Will you be so laid back when the next Republican President tries to bully state courts into limiting access to abortions or denying homosexual couples the same benefits as married heterosexual couples? Maybe you will join me in decrying the move then.
 
The problem is that civil rights should not be put up to a vote. Whenever they are, the minority group seeking rights are inevitably shut down by the majority. The Constitution is designed to limit tyranny of the majority.

And intervention by the federal government to protect vulnerable groups from oppression by states is sometimes necessary.
 
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