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Wildstar Your Thoughts on Wildstar's Revenue Model

Korova said:
But to your point, Guild Wars 2 was *also* pay to win in the respect that you could spend currency to get in game currency, which lead to players having advantages. There's more than one definition of P2W.
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Hmm. I stille have a hard time labeling GW2 as pay to win, mostly because of the gear being "equalized" across the board and obtainable easily and for cheap. And the boosts were pretty negligable because you still had to earn the exp or karma (just like you do in LoL, it's just faster). Sadly GW2 is all about the experience and not the endgame, so you're cheating yourself with many of the boosts lol.

And its not like you NEED to unlock EVERY character in LoL. You unlock your "set" with RP. And do you really need 10 costumes for each one?! But again, I don't play LoL (/shudder) so I'll stay out of that one for the msot part.
 
Korova said:
The point I was making was that, while - yes - you don't have to pay money to *be good* (win any one particular game), you can either pay money to get RP which translates into XP boosts and IP boosts OR you can /not/ spend a red cent and drudge through the time it would take to surpass those hundreds of toxic players who have been *banned* and remade another account. Even still, when you do get to the 'maximum point', it's not a lot better.

To elaborate, they purposefully designed the game so that you /need/ rune pages and /need/ runes to compete. They purposefully intended for you to play your 1-30 with banned accounts. You can waste hours doing it with people you don't like, you can play many many more repetitive games with bots, or you can just pay $25 and get to the actual 'game' (30) in a fraction of the time you'd have spent wanting to die inside because of all the rage and immaturity. Which option do you want? It's a false choice and it's a subtle form of P2W.

Although please, correct me if I'm wrong.

But to your point, Guild Wars 2 was *also* pay to win in the respect that you could spend currency to get in game currency, which lead to players having advantages. There's more than one definition of P2W.
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I really don't feel like correcting anything you say tbh.

If you want to stick with league is p2w because you play with trolls then lol. Like that is just stupid.

And again. Rune pages are like bag space in an mmo. You are perfectly fine with 2, the more the merrier. And you can't buy runes with money. You need ip. Money makes things easier. Money always will makes things easier. Nor is level 30 the actually game. The only thing you get when you are level 30 is max level and a chance to play ranked which brings way more trolls than 1 - 30 every will.

And I was just saying if he wanted to claim league was p2w look at the other mmo cash jobs which could be considered way worse. League nor GW2 are p2w tho I don't believe you can get a perfect game with subs because if you don't have subs, money will always make your game life more enjoyable or easier. Its simply that.
 
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I actually think paying a $15 sub is kind of unreasonable, you're making me pay $180 in the first year but the game cost $60. So you're saying in the first year you will have released enough content for two entirely new games (if the game is $60)? No chance. But to Gyoin 's point, I think the game needs to begin at a higher price point - both to help recoup initial costs, and allow for sales later on. BUT I also think Demetrio 's idea of a low monthly subscription is a solid option.

I think it would be a wonderful trick to have a $5-8 subscription where the lowest margin of time is 3 months and decreases as the sub time goes up toward the $5 mark - to demetrio's larger point...as much as I love hearing
fishsticks is correct
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I actually think I might disagree with myself a bit. I think if a cash shop existed that ONLY sold cosmetic items, and other "fun" only items, people would buy them. Skins, holiday festival hats etc.

I also think you could sell XP boosts in the cash shop that would sell like CRAZY (CRAAAAAAZZZZY) - and no I dont consider that P2win, because reaching max level isnt really "winning". Furthermore, all PvP has Rallying so you're never playing against a really high level player, AND even if you were to come across and XP boosted player, he would probably be under-geared for his level (via collecting fewer items through needing to do less quests and kill less mobs etc)




(oh and I still totally disagree with the rotating free options, thats silly)
 
Roasty said:
I really don't feel like correcting anything you say tbh.

If you want to stick with league is p2w because you play with trolls then lol. Like that is just stupid.

And again. Rune pages are like bag space in an mmo. You are perfectly fine with 2, the more the merrier. And you can't buy runes with money. You need ip. Money makes things easier. Money always will makes things easier. Nor is level 30 the actually game. The only thing you get when you are level 30 is max level and a chance to play ranked which brings way more trolls than 1 - 30 every will.

And I was just saying if he wanted to claim league was p2w look at the other mmo cash jobs which could be considered way worse. League nor GW2 are p2w tho I don't believe you can get a perfect game with subs because if you don't have subs, money will always make your game life more enjoyable or easier. Its simply that.
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Normally a good argument doesn't need to attack the person, it addresses the points made and doesn't assume something not asserted.

Fine is a fairly arbitrary word - if you want to maximize chances of winning, you won't stick with just two load outs. Against an equal skilled opponent, if you don't have the runes which mitigate the most damage or allow your character to deal the most, then sure...maybe you're playing 'fine' but fine is generally not good enough to win a game, especially when your opponent has a numerical advantage over you before the game even starts. Riot could have *not* put in the rune system or given you all the runes at the start of the game. The only thing left would have been xp/ip boosts with RP, champion purchases with RP and skins with RP.

I was never saying it is more or less pay to win than any other game or that the game itself was good or bad, just that it has a subtle P2W feature.

But I'll agree to disagree, I'd rather not have my topic derailed. If you want to actually contribute to why a F2P model would be beneficial to Wildstar, please feel free to post.
 
Fishsticks said:



I actually think paying a $15 sub is kind of unreasonable, you're making me pay $180 in the first year but the game cost $60. So you're saying in the first year you will have released enough content for two entirely new games (if the game is $60)? No chance. But to Gyoin 's point, I think the game needs to begin at a higher price point - both to help recoup initial costs, and allow for sales later on. BUT I also think Demetrio 's idea of a low monthly subscription is a solid option.

I think it would be a wonderful trick to have a $5-8 subscription where the lowest margin of time is 3 months and decreases as the sub time goes up toward the $5 mark - to demetrio's larger point...as much as I love hearing

I actually think I might disagree with myself a bit. I think if a cash shop existed that ONLY sold cosmetic items, and other "fun" only items, people would buy them. Skins, holiday festival hats etc.

I also think you could sell XP boosts in the cash shop that would sell like CRAZY (CRAAAAAAZZZZY) - and no I dont consider that P2win, because reaching max level isnt really "winning". Furthermore, all PvP has Rallying so you're never playing against a really high level player, AND even if you were to come across and XP boosted player, he would probably be under-geared for his level (via collecting fewer items through needing to do less quests and kill less mobs etc)




(oh and I still totally disagree with the rotating free options, thats silly)
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Good post!

However, if the game developers decided to have a flat purchase option (B2P) and a flat sub option - leaving only one method of acquiring and playing the game - depending on what the developers had planned with the game, $15 may be a fair price or more than reasonable.

I think one thing which should be noted is that we can't arbitrarily compare different games of different genres. I would seriously doubt there are other genres which offer the amount of immersion you can get in an MMO - it's its own drug of sorts.

Of course, you could be completely on course with your point and $15 may be overboard. However, I personally hope it would be at least a $15-$20 dollar experience - but we won't know until we get more information.

I disagree however with your point about XP boosts - just because you or I don't see how it might affect someone or give them an advantage in the game, doesn't mean a boost doesn't. Normally in conversations which lead somewhere, there are definitions. If we define P2W as something which gives a game play advantage of *any sort* to a player due to spending real world currency, then yes XP boosts would give a game play advantage to people - they reach max level the quickest or have the statistical advantage of reaching it faster relative to someone who doesn't have the boost. I don't care about hitting level 'max' first and you might not either, but that doesn't mean that someone else or some group of people wouldn't want to and a boost is unfair to them.

However, the concept of P2W is somewhat subjective - if we don't agree to a definition, then any game might be P2W and might not be P2W in some proportion.
 
I know my preferred way of playing an MMO is just to have a sub. It pays their bills and keeps content coming to me over time. I hate hate the micro stores. I feel stupid spending money on cosmetic things because I don't feel I'm getting any real value out of it besides, oh, I look a little cooler. It doesn't really increase the amount of fun I happen to be experiencing at the time.

Also, as a collector (and I have collected competitively in MMOs before), these items that are just cosmetic to most players (like a new pet or mount) are one of my main goals in MMOs. Putting them in the shop is kind of just a way to eternally taunt me. I want to have all the pets and all the mounts, but now you're dangling it before me, telling me I need to spend money that I can't convince myself is actually worth money. The hunt is 75% of the fun anyway. Making it able to purchased just takes that away from me.
 
Korova, your arguments about pay to win are very similar to the arguments I made against GW2's gem store. The only somewhat-redeeming factor with it was buying gems with in-game currency. Unfortunately, the conversion cost has gone up tremendously despite Arenanet saying that they would monitor the price and try to keep it reasonable. No one really seemed to get what I was saying about pay to win before the game was released, and the players still don't seem to care even though you can flat out buy a legendary weapon with real money. The cost is insane, but I'm quite convinced that wealthy people and MMO players can be insane.
 
Gyoin said:
I have a heavy education in accounting and finance.
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Me too!

Anyways I do think that "good" or "great" games should go back to the subscription model. I do not want micro transactions to unlock a dungeon or make it easy to attain gear. I want something to work for. I want something to do in the game. I don't want to be over it in a month because the content was trivialized for whatever reason.

Show me a good F2P game that is long standing and FUN. Good luck.
 
tr1age said:
I prefer the one they decide to use because regardless we have to use it :)
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Thanks for the response!

Assuming there is absolutely no 'competition' with regards to other transitional MMOs or 'Next Gen' MMOs, well..you're absolutely right.

The other few that I'm remotely aware about - with the potential to be more sandbox-y or transitional - are Neverwinter, EQ3 and Project Titan. Without going into much detail about each specific game, I know if any of these plan to use a free to play model with non ethical transactions, I will immediately look to commit my entire gaming session to Wildstar. However, with that said, I feel confident based on the information we know that even if Wildstar was F2P, it wouldn't be as 'heinous' as what I expect EQ3 and Neverwinter to be (or are already). There's just so much reason to *not* go ahead with F2P with most of these games. Why not stand out and be the B2P sub game amongst the F2P'ers?

Even though I've also admitted in another thread that I probably won't be into Titan due to how I was personally treated as a customer and how so many others were treated because of legitimate concerns about D3, I have a wisp of wonderment and hope that maybe things will really change for the better.

Of course, none of this is to say that I absolutely despise F2P - once in a blue moon I'll pop on League of Legends or Path of Exile. I've recently started playing Loadout which is F2P and has XP boosts. However, none of these are MMORPGs (although Path of Exile does come awfully close).

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TL;DR Thanks for the response, I think you're right assuming there's little competition in the genre. I suspect most of the other established MMOs will be F2P/MT oriented and that they'll probably be much less ethical than Wildstar should it go F2P. In particular, Titan and EQ3 interest me but due to personal reasons I probably won't buy into them - although I hope I'm wrong. Finally, I do have a few titles I play which are F2P - I just think that an MMO shouldn't be.
 
Pay to play, please. Companies are getting more and more greedy with their micro-transactions and I think (thankfully) a lot of people are more than willing to go back to a pay2play plan. Just look at Neverwinter and their $6 respec costs with no in-game alternative, no craftable bags (must buy via micro-transactions... $10!! not shared per character!), etc.. I'm ready to pay monthly for a game again, if it's worthy. I'm done with the nickle and diming.
 
This is an interview with Jeremy Gaffney regarding various topics of interest, including a brief 'hint' regarding the upcoming reveal of the payment model:



The very very brief mention is at ~15:58 in the video.

It was brought to my attention when browsing the reddit sub-forum that they have decided upon a payment model, but they're not ready to reveal. In the interview Jeremy mentions that the payment model - decided as of now - is a 'hybrid'. I'm currently going through the video trying to get the exact quote and time.

Speculating - first, they haven't finalized via a reveal to the public yet, so it's not de facto as of yet. However, if there are options for F2P, I suspect most of the MT options will be based on aesthetic customization for your house and land plot. I'm worried that there will be xp boosts and pay to win gear, but I remain hopeful that it'll remain ethical. Personally, I'm totally fine if F2P users don't have access to *pure aesthetic* materials and the sub users do.

Call me a hater but, if someone doesn't care enough about the game (and for legitimate reasons sometimes) and will only play because it's free .. I don't know if I want them playing the game. Contribute to the growth of the game, or don't play. As Jeremy said '..they're a bunch of elitists' too so...all in all I hope if it is hybrid there is a bit of innovation to keep the casual free ballers contributing constantly to the game in some way.
 
XP boosts as micro transactions do effect the game in the open world. Say you meet the opposite faction member that is 5 levels higher than you, considering our FAQ says we will be rolling on a PvP server, that would effect things significantly through the levelling process.

To spur the conversation, what do you speculate could be considered a hybrid from the companies perspective?

F2P + MT for additional content as well as P2P available?
 
Korova said:
This is an interview with Jeremy Gaffney regarding various topics of interest, including a brief 'hint' regarding the upcoming reveal of the payment model:



The very very brief mention is at ~15:58 in the video.

It was brought to my attention when browsing the reddit sub-forum that they have decided upon a payment model, but they're not ready to reveal. In the interview Jeremy mentions that the payment model - decided as of now - is a 'hybrid'. I'm currently going through the video trying to get the exact quote and time.

Speculating - first, they haven't finalized via a reveal to the public yet, so it's not de facto as of yet. However, if there are options for F2P, I suspect most of the MT options will be based on aesthetic customization for your house and land plot. I'm worried that there will be xp boosts and pay to win gear, but I remain hopeful that it'll remain ethical. Personally, I'm totally fine if F2P users don't have access to *pure aesthetic* materials and the sub users do.

Call me a hater but, if someone doesn't care enough about the game (and for legitimate reasons sometimes) and will only play because it's free .. I don't know if I want them playing the game. Contribute to the growth of the game, or don't play. As Jeremy said '..they're a bunch of elitists' too so...all in all I hope if it is hybrid there is a bit of innovation to keep the casual free ballers contributing constantly to the game in some way.
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I like how during the interview they were saying a group on the team were having a hard time on the last boss of one of the first dungeons for 1-1.5 hours. They are also tuning it like a sausage making machine Insert Noob, guide along and slowly demonstrate mechanics and out pops an elitist.

Also housing almost sounds like farmville but with some rare spawns/loot coming out of gardening haha!
 
Rajax said:
XP boosts as micro transactions do effect the game in the open world. Say you meet the opposite faction member that is 5 levels higher than you, considering our FAQ says we will be rolling on a PvP server, that would effect things significantly through the levelling process.
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Really this only effects the first 2 days of the game. Power levelers will buy these to be "first to cap" and they won't we pvping because it takes away from power leveling.

After that you have power levelers who will gank you because the mentality of someone who pushes that hard is often the same mentality that will happily gank lower people.

After the first week the first wave of players will be way above the 2nd wave and so on. There will always be people who will take advantage of this.
 
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