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Government shuts down: Deadline reached

My healthcare raised anyway because of the Obamacare which hasn't even taken effect yet. If it ever goes through i might as well go live secluded in the wilderness than pay the outrageous prices the insurance companies are going to make us pay BECAUSE of Obamacare


This...my healthcare is going to get raised ridiculously...and what is worse...being a local government employee...they will do away with the option of other healthcare plans and leave only this.
 
The President has submitted a budget EVERY YEAR. His budget is just a roadmap though because Congress has deliberate it and actually pass something. The President actually proposed a budget early this year but it was DOA, as republicans would not even put it up for a vote.

And yes defunding programs is part of what Congress does, but it has NEVER been part of the basic funding of general government services. Also Obamacare is funded through totally seperate means than this budget. Shutting down the government does not stop Obamacare one bit, it's rolling right along while Republicans look like idiots out there. Republicans made Obamacare a central theme of the elections and they pretty much got their tales handed to them, now they are still upset about it and want to take their ball and go home. Sorry, but you don't always get your way, no matter how much you try to buly the other side.

I'm pretty proud of democrats on this one. Typically over the last 5 years the president and Democrats have caved on issues and moved way to far to the right of their position on issues without getting equitable concession from the other side. This time they are standing their ground because they are right.

This whole thing is exactly why I wish Congressmen had 4 year terms. Because they have to run every two years, they are in constant fear of the next election and making decisions based on that instead of what is right. These guys are so afraid of the tea party and getting hit from the right that they are afraid to do what they know is right.
 
I for one am extremely happy that comprehensive healthcare is finally here. I believe the affordable care act aka Obamacare addresses the fundamental problem with healthcare today which is rising cost. What the republicans are offering (a tax credit) is the dumbest possible idea. Give someone a tax credit and the insurance companies are just going to raise you rate to the level to take every penny of that credit. It does nothing to address the fundamental issue that healthcare rates continue to rise.


Isn't the whole crux of ObamaCare that if you can't afford insurance, you get tax credits to subsidize it? I can't get tax credits though, because my work offers a program that meets ObamaCare standards, so if I don't like my work program and I want to buy my own coverage, it has to come 100% out of pocket. How is that providing me with choice?

Also, I am now FORCED to take health coverage or pay penalties. That's essential because the young and healthy have to fund the program for the old and sickly. That's insurance 101, but instead of making programs that will attract people on the open market, we are now forced to participate by the government. I'm fine with more people getting insurance, it's HOW it's being done that's at issue with me. I don't think most Americans really get it yet, and once it's fully implemented and sinks in, it's pretty much too late.

I want to see Conservatives fighting tooth and nail to fix healthcare properly, but tactics like the ones they've been using are a bridge too far for me.

I stand corrected that Obama hasn't proposed a budget, but look at this thing: over 1 trillion in spending on healthcare alone, and it's 901 BILLION in deficit. How can that be anything but DOA?
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/02/13/us/politics/2013-budget-proposal-graphic.html
 
My healthcare raised anyway because of the Obamacare which hasn't even taken effect yet. If it ever goes through i might as well go live secluded in the wilderness than pay the outrageous prices the insurance companies are going to make us pay BECAUSE of Obamacare

Fallacy.. Your rates continue to go up because you are paying for the uninsured. As the scores of uninsured get coverage your rates will go down and stabalize.

I personally think having your healthcare tied to your company is absolutely insane. With the way people change jobs now and move around, running healthcare that way will be totally untenable in the future. Just one guys opinion.
 
Fallacy.. Your rates continue to go up because you are paying for the uninsured. As the scores of uninsured get coverage your rates will go down and stabalize.

I personally think having your healthcare tied to your company is absolutely insane. With the way people change jobs now and move around, running healthcare that way will be totally untenable in the future. Just one guys opinion.

False! I have asked our healthcare provider and he told me flat-out it was because of Obamacare. I have thought about dismissing my companies insurance and getting my own but over a 6 month period the increase was insane and i confronted multiple agencies and they told me the same thing.
 
It takes 2 to tango. You can't lay blame on one side of the party without pointing fingers at the other. Well i think you can but it certainly isn't the right way to see the situation. The democrats have been so far up Obamas but that at the snap of a finger they will defend Obamacare to the point of a shutdown, Even refuses to see compromise by the kind and caring Republicans.
They're defending it because it's the law. As I said, it's already been passed and ruled constitutional. Defunding it is not constitutionally acceptable. This shutdown was completely unnecessary, just a stunt to draw attention to Republicans who didn't get their way.

The Affordable Care Act is a mess, but more than that, I don't want government run healthcare, just on principle.
I have good news for you, then: The Affordable Care Act is not government-run healthcare. That would be a public option, which it isn't. That's just the thing that every other industrialized nation on the planet has.

My healthcare raised anyway because of the Obamacare which hasn't even taken effect yet.
Umm... if it hasn't taken effect yet... how is this possible? I think that might just be your insurance company screwing you.

You guys do know that you don't have to use Obamacare if you already have insurance, right?

Isn't the whole crux of ObamaCare that if you can't afford insurance, you get tax credits to subsidize it? I can't get tax credits though, because my work offers a program that meets ObamaCare standards, so if I don't like my work program and I want to buy my own coverage, it has to come 100% out of pocket. How is that providing me with choice?
Because if the ACA didn't exist, there wouldn't even be the choice to take it. It would be either accepting your work insurance, or again, paying for an individual plan out of pocket like my parents are doing for me now. The choice is viable for some people, and not others.

Also, I am now FORCED to take health coverage or pay penalties. That's essential because the young and healthy have to fund the program for the old and sickly.
The individual mandate - the idea that everyone must have insurance - actually has a very interesting history. Do you know who first proposed it? The arch-conservative think tank, The Heritage Foundation. It's to prevent the uninsured from clogging emergency rooms, which they tend to do because they can't afford preventative care, and racking up a huge bill that's shunted off to taxpayers. Taking charge of your own health care is an issue of personal responsibility, a conservative principle. It's why it was an essential part of the health care system Republican governor Mitt Romney introduced in Massachusetts. Of course, now that the evil Kenyan socialist has decided it's a good idea, it's the worst thing ever.
 
Isn't the whole crux of ObamaCare that if you can't afford insurance, you get tax credits to subsidize it? I can't get tax credits though, because my work offers a program that meets ObamaCare standards, so if I don't like my work program and I want to buy my own coverage, it has to come 100% out of pocket. How is that providing me with choice?

Also, I am now FORCED to take health coverage or pay penalties. That's essential because the young and healthy have to fund the program for the old and sickly. That's insurance 101, but instead of making programs that will attract people on the open market, we are now forced to participate by the government. I'm fine with more people getting insurance, it's HOW it's being done that's at issue with me. I don't think most Americans really get it yet, and once it's fully implemented and sinks in, it's pretty much too late.

I want to see Conservatives fighting tooth and nail to fix healthcare properly, but tactics like the ones they've been using are a bridge too far for me.

I stand corrected that Obama hasn't proposed a budget, but look at this thing: over 1 trillion in spending on healthcare alone, and it's 901 BILLION in deficit. How can that be anything but DOA?
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/02/13/us/politics/2013-budget-proposal-graphic.html

This is exactly where the public option and exchange would come in but democrats caved on that which I hated. They were also suppose to allow people for form their own pools so that there could be new programs to attract people, but that was removed too.

I truly think the only way to solve the rising healthcare cost issue longterm is to have a public option. That would set a baseline for what cost should be.

Time to get back to work... lol
 
Umm... if it hasn't taken effect yet... how is this possible? I think that might just be your insurance company screwing you.

You guys do know that you don't have to use Obamacare if you already have insurance, right?

They are preparing for the increase.

If i don't want to use Obamacare i have to pay a ridiculous amount when i go for my tax return.
They're defending it because it's the law. As I said, it's already been passed and ruled constitutional. Defunding it is not constitutionally acceptable. This shutdown was completely unnecessary, just a stunt to draw attention to Republicans who didn't get their way.
Same can be said about the Democrats. They don't even want to compromise with the Republicans. When it was passed to the Republicans they didn't change anything but added two things (Obamacare and taking away government insurance for congress and the president, which doesn't seem unreasonable to me. We have to pay it, why not them?)and handed it back to the Senate and they said nope. So the ball was passed into the Senates court and has stayed there. So i would say the Dems are a little butthurt and are hanging on to what little they have
 
If i don't want to use Obamacare i have to pay a ridiculous amount when i go for my tax return.
$95/year if you choose not to have insurance. Ridiculous! And you can continue using your employer's insurance. So that won't affect you at all.

Same can be said about the Democrats. They don't even want to compromise with the Republicans.
They don't have to compromise. The Affordable Care Act is the law. It was passed three years ago and ruled constitutional. Republicans keep shouting that Democrats won't compromise with them, but what they are suggesting is unreasonable and illegal. They are attempting to subvert the Constitution. It's not compromise, it's extortion.

There is an astonishing amount of misinformation rattling around about this law, so I'd encourage everyone to read this FAQ.
 
$95/year if you choose not to have insurance. Ridiculous! And you can continue using your employer's insurance. So that won't affect you at all.

I'd like to see your facts because in NC it varies on how much you get paid. They showed me last tax season and you might want to take that figure and x6 it.

They don't have to compromise. The Affordable Care Act is the law. It was passed three years ago and ruled constitutional. Republicans keep shouting that Democrats won't compromise with them, but what they are suggesting is unreasonable and illegal. They are attempting to subvert the Constitution. It's not compromise, it's extortion.

There is an astonishing amount of misinformation rattling around about this law, so I'd encourage everyone to read this FAQ.

Laws get changed all the time. Just because this was put in doesn't mean it can't be taken out. Obama and Democrats are the definition of extortionist. I think you had your parties backwards.

Republicans have been fighting Obamacare from the beginning and i hope that they continue to do so until they can finally repeal it.
 
I'd like to see your facts because in NC it varies on how much you get paid. They showed me last tax season and you might want to take that figure and x6 it.
Read the FAQ I just posted. It's $95 per person, or up to $285 or 1% of total income. Again, it won't affect you if you already have insurance from your employer. Who is they? Where is your source?

Laws get changed all the time. Just because this was put in doesn't mean it can't be taken out.
Yes, there is a constitutional process involved in repealing laws. This is not it.

Republicans have been fighting Obamacare from the beginning and i hope that they continue to do so until they can finally repeal it.
Republicans have voted to symbolically repeal Obamacare over forty times so far. It has cost taxpayers $50 million.
 
Also, businesses that typically had full-time employees and didn't have to provide health care to their employees under Obamacare they will now have to provide healthcare. Responses from businesses are that they cut workers hours to part-time so they wouldn't have to provide healthcare.

So tell me how that benefits anyone?

Its almost like saying "Lets raise the minimum wage" What a completely stupid thing to say. Companies have a percent for profit. with increase in wages they start to lose that percentage and find means to get their percentages back up via cut hours, cut employees, raise prices which doesn't benefit anyone.

Democrats need to look at the long-term picture here instead of trying to slap a band-aid on an arm that was blown off.
 
Read the FAQ I just posted. It's $95 per person, or up to $285 or 1% of total income. Again, it won't affect you if you already have insurance from your employer. Who is they? Where is your source?

.

They must have their facts wrong then because I got my Taxes done by H&R block and they showed my in big letters because they are required to by law how much Obamacare was going to cost me if i didn't have insurance and it was a lot more than $285.
 
Also, businesses that typically had full-time employees and didn't have to provide health care to their employees under Obamacare they will now have to provide healthcare. Responses from businesses are that they cut workers hours to part-time so they wouldn't have to provide healthcare.
That only applies to businesses with fifty or more employees. Small businesses with fewer employees don't have to provide insurance, but they will receive tax credits if they choose to do so. Again, read the FAQ I just posted. Here. It's right here. Click it.

There is no evidence that businesses are cutting workers to part-time to any meaningful degree, as over 90% of the gains in employment since the ACA passed have been full-time.

Its almost like saying "Lets raise the minimum wage" What a completely stupid thing to say.
The minimum wage is no longer a living wage. It hasn't risen to accommodate inflation. You might remember when McDonald's produced a recommended budget for their employees, but it failed to include expenses like food or heating and assumed the worker had a second job. Most people working at minimum wage aren't teenagers entering the workforce, but adults, 35 years old on average, and mostly women. But that's its own can of worms.

They must have their facts wrong then because I got my Taxes done by H&R block and they showed my in big letters because they are required to by law how much Obamacare was going to cost me if i didn't have insurance and it was a lot more than $285.
It will gradually increase over the next few years, but for now it's just $95 per person. Every source I can find says $95. Consider asking H&R Block to itemize it for you or find a source that says otherwise.

And again - this will not affect you if you already have insurance through your employer. I don't know how many times I have to say this.
 
They must have their facts wrong then because I got my Taxes done by H&R block and they showed my in big letters because they are required to by law how much Obamacare was going to cost me if i didn't have insurance and it was a lot more than $285.

I think that's the penalty, which will not affect you if you comply by having insurance, either through work or personal.

Health insurance premiums are going up and will continue to do so simply because people that should not qualify for coverage will be getting it. That extra cost has to come from somewhere, either increased insurance premiums or increased taxes. Either way, we will pay more money.

But good news, Baldo. According to Forbes, avoiding the tax penalty and not having insurance really won't be that hard. And don't worry if you suddenly get sick or hurt. Under ObamaCare, companies cannot deny you for pre-existing conditions, so just wait and buy the insurance only AFTER you know you need it. Sure, it will make prices skyrocket for those trying to do it the "right" way, but why would the government leave loopholes unless they wanted us to use them?

http://www.forbes.com/sites/merrill...-health-insurance-mandate-for-fun-and-profit/
 
That only applies to businesses with fifty or more employees. Small businesses with fewer employees don't have to provide insurance, but they will receive tax credits if they choose to do so. Again, read the FAQ I just posted. Here. It's right here. Click it.

And America is made up of small businesses. The businesses choose not to receive tax credits is because it is cheaper to cut hours than to opt for health insurance.
There is no evidence that businesses are cutting workers to part-time to any meaningful degree, as over 90% of the gains in employment since the ACA passed have been full-time.
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Hours cut due to Obamacare. Its happening all across the Country.
The minimum wage is no longer a living wage. It hasn't risen to accommodate inflation. You might remember when McDonald's produced a recommended budget for their employees, but it failed to include expenses like food or heating and assumed the worker had a second job. Most people working at minimum wage aren't teenagers entering the workforce, but adults, 35 years old on average, and mostly women. But that's its own can of worms.
Hurting consumers due to wage increases. As i stated earlier if the minimum rate is increased it will cause inflation due to businesses staying in their profit margins. Most workers working at minimum wage jobs are teenagers or college students to pay for loans or some food and transportation. Here, here, and here. Shows most minimum wage workers are under 25. Yes, it is true that you can't really live off of minimum wage but those jobs aren't there for the adults who have kids and live a life. These jobs are here for young adults to get an experience of the working world before finishing highschool or college.
It will gradually increase over the next few years, but for now it's just $95 per person. Every source I can find says $95. Consider asking H&R Block to itemize it for you or find a source that says otherwise.

And again - this will not affect you if you already have insurance through your employer. I don't know how many times I have to say this.
Again, i really don't know how many times i have to repeat myself but alas i must. I have talked with H&R Block and they showed me what it will be like next year if i don't have insurance. I HAVE INSURANCE so it does not affect me. Just making the point that it is more than $95. $95 or 1% WHICHEVER is higher. In my case the 1% is MUCH higher.
 
From the article Red linked:

But the steep drop in rates in New York will likely not be mirrored in many other states. That's because New York is one of the few that already required many of the benefits of Obamacare, which left its individual market filled with a small pool of sicker residents and very high costs. Only 17,000 New Yorkers buy their own insurance right now, while 2.6 million people lack coverage.
New York does not allow insurers to reject people with pre-existing conditions, something Obamacare also bars them from doing. And it required them to provide a standard set of deductibles, co-pays and benefits, including hospital care, lab tests and prescription drugs.
That sent premium costs soaring. Health care costs per capita are about 18% higher in New York than nationally, state officials said.
But under Obamacare, healthier residents are expected to flood the individual market to avoid paying the penalty. The state is expecting more than 600,000 people to enter the exchanges, with about 70% of them eligible for federal subsidies.
"The people who are going to come in are healthy people who can't afford the coverage now," said Gary Claxton, vice president at the Kaiser Family Foundation. "That will substantially lower the average cost of care."

Wait, wait. So New York had a plan that was VERY similar to ObamaCare and it sent rates through the roof. But when we do the exact same thing again, we won't get the same results, because "under Obamacare, healthier residents are expected to flood the individual market to avoid paying the penalty."

Here's hoping, right? Or will this be a case of Atlas Shrugged?

http://money.cnn.com/2013/07/17/news/economy/obamacare-health-insurance-new-york/index.html?iid=EL
 
And America is made up of small businesses. The businesses choose not to receive tax credits is because it is cheaper to cut hours than to opt for health insurance.
They don't have to cut hours because they are not affected by the law. If a business has fewer than 50 employees, it doesn't have to take any action whatsoever.

Hours cut due to Obamacare. Its happening all across the Country.
Forever 21, one of the examples in the article, is an immensely profitable company. They had profits of $3.4 billion last year. It's not that they can't afford to cover workers' health insurance; they don't want to because they can shave off overhead by pinching pennies. That speaks more of their avarice and duplicity than of a failing in the law.

Hurting consumers due to wage increases. As i stated earlier if the minimum rate is increased it will cause inflation due to businesses staying in their profit margins. Most workers working at minimum wage jobs are teenagers or college students to pay for loans or some food and transportation. Here, here, and here. Shows most minimum wage workers are under 25. Yes, it is true that you can't really live off of minimum wage but those jobs aren't there for the adults who have kids and live a life. These jobs are here for young adults to get an experience of the working world before finishing highschool or college.
Here's a counter-opinion to the first article - the minimum wage does not cause inflation. The guy who wrote that identifies as an Austrian-school economist, which is based on inaccurate models that aren't borne out by empirical data. Rather than evidence, it relies on something called "praxeology" (i.e. bullshit). It is considered by serious economists to be pseudoscience. The only country that uses something approaching an Austrian model is, um, Somalia. And they're doing great, right?

Two of those links are broken (the BLS website is down because of the government shutdown) and the third is from The Heritage Foundation, a conservative think tank. Here's another source indicating that most minimum-wage workers are not teenagers. And most widely-available work is minimum wage. Obviously increasing it blindly isn't a good idea, but it hasn't kept pace with inflation.

I HAVE INSURANCE so it does not affect me. Just making the point that it is more than $95. $95 or 1% WHICHEVER is higher. In my case the 1% is MUCH higher.
And that's because that portion of the law is not designed to target someone like you. You make enough money that 1% of your income is still negligible, such that it would be cheaper just to buy health insurance. Again, this is something that conservatives came up with. Specifically, The Heritage Foundation that you just linked to.
 
Wait, wait. So New York had a plan that was VERY similar to ObamaCare and it sent rates through the roof. But when we do the exact same thing again, we won't get the same results, because "under Obamacare, healthier residents are expected to flood the individual market to avoid paying the penalty."

Here's hoping, right? Or will this be a case of Atlas Shrugged?
Yes, the law relies on near-universal participation to function properly. Republicans at the state level have been working to sabotage it, of course. The law is by no means perfect, and it will hurt if it's not executed properly.[DOUBLEPOST=1380731283,1380730936][/DOUBLEPOST]Just going through all my posts and rating them "shocked" is not a compelling counter-argument.
 
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