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Government shuts down: Deadline reached

There will be a lot of people that will not only opt to not take the insurance, but will also just plain not pay the penalty as well.
The cost not to do so will get gradually more prohibitive in the coming years. And you can't opt not to pay the penalty, because they take it out of your tax return. Unless you're not paying taxes, too, but then you've got other problems.

In all seriousness I haven't followed the entire issue that closely. I have health insurance through work and it covers my family. It doesn't really apply to me does it?
Nope.
 
Better care is unlikely. As it is now primary care docs get reimbursed based on quantity, not quality. With quantity increasing there will continue to be drops in quality, along with budget cuts that further reduce the quality. E.R. waits are also slated to increase pretty drastically as well. What we NEED to do is, instead of 'fixing' the current system, we need to start fixing people. A major part of the problem is corporate corruption, especially with drug companies. We are also a country that jumps to medication over common sense things like EXERCISE. Our culture is not in need of more high-end health care, we are in need of a cultural shift to increase prophylaxis in the form of exercise. The other issue is our food production, which is also adding to our healthcare costs. The chemicals and crap we consume are terrible in this country. If we were able to change these, then maybe just maybe somewhere down the line we could make universal health coverage work. Healthier people = less crowding, cheaper insurance premiums, lower taxes, etc.

Yes, doctors in the majority of hospitals in the US are currently paid on a fee-for-service basis as opposed to receiving a salary; they get paid for each test they run. The concern is that this leads to the temptation to run unnecessary tests to increase their earnings. While I don't think that this is a rampant practice there is evidence that it makes up a significant portion of tests; some hospitals have tried switching to paying doctors salaries even before the Affordable Care Act got involved and it led to up to a 40% reduction in tests run in some places without any corresponding dip in patient care. Public databases of hospital services show huge disparities in cost of treatment over even short distances, e.g. two hospitals in the same city where one charges roughly $38,000 to treat pneumonia where another charges about $14,000. I'm sure the more expensive hospital has some good arguments for why it charges more but clearly it isn't strictly necessary. The new reimbursement system (which by the way applies to only patients on Medicare) is to reimburse the hospital for a defined period of care as opposed to reimbursing the individual tests and treatments which (hopefully) will reduce that disparity.

How will ER waits increase drastically? People without insurance can go to the ER and the hospital gets shafted on the bill. So the only change is that the exact same number of people will need to go to the ER but that hospitals will actually get reimbursed for a few more of them than they used to.

We certainly do need to fix the current system exactly because it is corrupt; drug corporations, insurance corporations and yes even hospital corporations. It's not that these are bad people out for themselves though, some are sure, but the corporations in a large part are taking advantage of the current system to remain competitive and keep investors happy. I agree that the people also need to be fixed; exercise, eating better, not going to crazy medical treatments to fix their problems for them, but hopefully this will help do that by giving them greater access to primary physicians who will hopefully in turn better educate people to take care of themselves. Part of that is also changing how doctors treat patients but that's a battle for a different day because we have to get them in the room first.


Not to mention insurance coverage provided by the government has never really worked, what makes us think it will work now?

The Affordable Care Act is *NOT* government health insurance. It's true that Medicaid is being expanded slightly to include individuals making up to 133% of the poverty level (~$15,000/year in the contiguous 48) but the majority of health insurance access being granted is to private health insurance that already exists in the system. The big change their is the creation of online exchanges where rates can be more easily understood and compared to increase competition in price.

There will be a lot of people that will not only opt to not take the insurance, but will also just plain not pay the penalty as well. We will still be footing the bill on all of them but without them paying a portion. Hell there are people that qualify for medicaid that don't even bother getting it because they just don't care; they know they can't get denied by the E.R. so they just rip up the bill when it comes.

Again, its not actual insurance, so they're simply opting not to buy their own insurance on the exchanges. Since the penalty is part of their taxes they don't really have the option to not pay it since they'd then be guilty of tax evasion. So the only change here is that instead of people not paying for insurance, using up expensive medical resources for free rather than cheaper medical resources earlier on, and not being penalized for it (which is the current system), if people don't pay for insurance and don't pay the penalty and still use up those resources the government can now come after them for it.

And why wouldn't they get insurance? With the exchanges it becomes incredibly affordable, with subsidies available to those making 100-400% of the poverty line (in the contiguous 48 ~$11,500-$46,000 for an individual, higher if you have dependents) making it even more so.

For many the penalty wouldn't even be worth dodging, for the first year its at 1% of income over the filing threshold with a cap at the average cost of bronze-level insurance on the exchanges for the year in question (currently ~$3,300). Furthermore if there is no health coverage available for under 8% of your income you are exempt from the penalty.

So for example lets say you make $100,000 a year and are filing as a single individual. Your penalty if you didn't buy insurance would be $902.50 for the year. Someone making this much will probably have health insurance but if they don't want it then that's not exactly a kick in the junk to pay.

$100,000 - $9,750 = $90,250
$90,250 * 0.01 = $902.50

Let's say they're making the median US income ($42,693 in 2012), their penalty would only be $329.43.

$42,693 - $9,750 = $32,943
$32,943 * 0.01 = $329.43

What about a family making the median US household income ($51,017 in 2012)? $315.17 for the year.

$51,017 - $19,500 = $31,517
$31,517 * 0.01 = $315.17

Granted, this is only the first year and the penalty rate is slated to go up over the next couple years so let's take a look at it at it's peak of $695 ($2,085 for a family) or 2.5% of income over filing threshold (takes effect in 2016, adjusted for inflation thereafter). Let's assume a somewhat bleak scenario where median income is stagnant and doesn't change (although if the debt ceiling isn't raised maybe stagnant would be phenomenal instead of bleak).

Same people:

$100,000 - $9,750 = $90,250 $2,256.25/year
$90,250 * 0.025 = $2,256.25

$42,693 - $9,750 = $32,943 $823.575/year
$32,943 * 0.025 = $823.575

$51,017 - $19,500 = $31,517 $787.925/year
$31,517 * 0.025 = $787.925

It's certainly high but it doesn't seem prohibitively so, particularly considering we've lived through tax hikes of this level in recent years without great impact. Certainly taxes compound so its not in a vacuum, but this is also assuming that they are opting not to buy their own health insurance, which is ultimately what the goal is with the changes to the system and the implementation of the exchanges.

... I'm going to stop here because this post developed a mind of its own. *octo3*
 
You can do that?! Screw health insurance!

In all seriousness I haven't followed the entire issue that closely. I have health insurance through work and it covers my family. It doesn't really apply to me does it?

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. I was on my fathers insurance until I was 26 (which I can kinda thank Obama for allowing me to do that for so long), and then had an interim health insurance through my staffing agency, then hired full time here and now on their health insurance (with Caroline included as per Domestic Relationship laws in NH allowed me to do so). I mean, I'm paying a decent chunk out of pocket to do so, but I'd rather have my insurance with the policies I want than a "one size fits all", low end government one.
 
You can do that?! Screw health insurance!

In all seriousness I haven't followed the entire issue that closely. I have health insurance through work and it covers my family. It doesn't really apply to me does it?

It does to the extent that your plan will have to comply with government mandates, which could increase the cost or stick you with benefits you don't want but have to pay for anyway, but not necessarily. The overall effect on the healthcare system will effect you. As Crake pointed out, it is likely that the quality of care will suffer.
 
Given that people who originally couldn't afford preventative care now can, they won't be placing an inordinate burden on emergency rooms. In that sense, quality of care will increase and taxpayer burden will decrease.
 
The cost not to do so will get gradually more prohibitive in the coming years. And you can't opt not to pay the penalty, because they take it out of your tax return. Unless you're not paying taxes, too, but then you've got other problems.
You can pay your taxes without having a return by either not withholding more than you need to or by paying them at the end of the year. Either of those will actually will save you money if you are good enough at figuring out taxes to do it right. Giving the govt tons of extra money to get a tax return later is a horrible investment. As it stands now, the govt wouldn't be able to charge your penalty by keeping your return in that scenario. However, I expect the government will find other recourse to get their penalties if people try to dodge them in this way.

Also, you don't have to pay the penalty if you are in dire financial straits, like missing mortgage payments, or received notices that utilities will be shut off. Arguably, you could purposely miss an electric bill, get threatened, and then use that letter to avoid the penalty. Again, I expect many of these loopholes to close eventually, but who knows.

I do it that way cuz I don't want to deal with the math.
 
You can pay your taxes without having a return by either not withholding more than you need to or by paying them at the end of the year. Either of those will actually will save you money if you are good enough at figuring out taxes to do it right.

Meh, I tend to overpay my taxes with a zero dependents and just collect early in February with a return. It's just simpler for a man with practically zero property.

But for a family, that can't always be done. I'm sure you yourself have found moments of tight money, because... kids. And isn't that partially what this whole obamacare thing is supposed to be about? Making sure families have coverage where they may not be able to otherwise?

To be truthful, I know little to nothing about the whole thing. Because just like most of my other political views, I just take care of myself in the best way possible I can, and deal with the government as needed.
 
Meh, I tend to overpay my taxes with a zero dependents and just collect early in February with a return. It's just simpler for a man with practically zero property.

But for a family, that can't always be done. I'm sure you yourself have found moments of tight money, because... kids. And isn't that partially what this whole obamacare thing is supposed to be about? Making sure families have coverage where they may not be able to otherwise?

To be truthful, I know little to nothing about the whole thing. Because just like most of my other political views, I just take care of myself in the best way possible I can, and deal with the government as needed.

Right now, I have effectively no tax burden at all. With 4 kids and a decent (lower middle class) income, I've been getting back every cent I withhold in taxes, plus some more thrown on top for child credits.

I have been very tight on money. I was on food stamps for awhile, and once had to ask my dad to bail me out of a very tight place before my car got repoed. That was about rock bottom for me as a man and a father. I fixed it by cutting spending and getting on a budget. It's like the diet and exercise of finances- it would fix 99% of America's problems if the govt and people got a balanced budget and *gasp* saved money instead of going into debt. There are VERY few situations where individuals are not able to cut spending and get balanced, but our consumerist society says you have to have a cell phone, cable, and eat at restaurants, even at the lowest levels of poverty.

This, for me, is what ObamaCare is about. People are unwilling to take care of themselves and like the idea of government doing it for them. Unfortunately, our government is no better with money than the average over-their-heads-in-debt citizen. It's a house of cards, and I'd really like it if my retirement and healthcare weren't perched on top.
 
Keleynal, you and I have very similar views on money. And I applaud you for being able to handle your finances appropriately. Thank you for leaving me some faith on the rest of humanity, and that you have the pride to provide for your family, even if it means swallowing it when needed.
 
This, for me, is what ObamaCare is about. People are unwilling to take care of themselves and like the idea of government doing it for them.
Not unwilling, in many cases, but unable. Right-wing politicians have concocted some really contemptible narratives about the poor that simply aren't true. The "welfare queen" myth was hogwash from the moment it left Reagan's mouth.

And government is not taking over their health care. In some cases, more people will be covered under the expansion of Medicaid, but that's only happening in about half the states in the union (it's blocked by Republicans in the others). For most, what the government is doing is providing them a centralized bargaining platform with insurance companies.



The Affordable Care Act is not a public option. It is not a government takeover of health care. I simply cannot stress this enough.
 
I'm going off of the current state of my hospital and how the admins are handling the incoming changes. They are not happy. I've heard through the grapevine that Cleveland Clinic is planning on shutting down a large portion of their smaller research facilities, etc. to offset the anticipated costs.

Another thing you have to realize is the system will not be used as intended. Period. It will not go according to plan, there will be serious issues that no one has anticipated. We need to focus on getting out of this economic climate before we make major changes to healthcare on a system-wide level; our country can't handle taking a hit if this whole thing flops right now. To me, it makes no sense to be doing this now. Concept on paper vs. real world are very different. I really don't know enough about specifics to get in to a micro debate; again this is going off of the predictions of our hospital in anticipation of the outcome of the bill. I work for NYP which is ranked #6 or 7 in the U.S. and is quite large; they know their shit and they have people that have reviewed every detail. We had about a 2 hour lecture on anticipated changes we should expect to see after the bill is passed, and not a single thing they said was good in any way.
 
This, for me, is what ObamaCare is about. People are unwilling to take care of themselves and like the idea of government doing it for them. Unfortunately, our government is no better with money than the average over-their-heads-in-debt citizen. It's a house of cards, and I'd really like it if my retirement and healthcare weren't perched on top.

I don't really feel that this is an accurate representation of the new law; besides a very limited expansion of Medicaid the vast majority of the law is designed to curtail predatory practices in the healthcare industry at large. The current system involves people who are unwilling to take care of themselves and as such do not obtain health insurance and do not take care of themselves and then get rushed to the ER and expect the rest of us to fork over the cash to clean up their mistakes. The new system isn't going to change people overnight but its telling these people that they are responsible to contribute something to their own care, while simultaneously telling insurers, drug makers and hospitals to stop making it so hard for the people who DO want to take care of themselves to do so.

I am 100% against socialized medicine but the Affordable Care Act is *NOT* socialized medicine. When government tries to run things completely and totally they tend to screw it up royally, when government tries to remain completely and totally out of something it tends to turn into something that screws everyone. The purpose of this law is to step in, smack a few people on the nose with a newspaper, say "play nice" and then step back.

I'm going off of the current state of my hospital and how the admins are handling the incoming changes. They are not happy. I've heard through the grapevine that Cleveland Clinic is planning on shutting down a large portion of their smaller research facilities, etc. to offset the anticipated costs.

Another thing you have to realize is the system will not be used as intended. Period. It will not go according to plan, there will be serious issues that no one has anticipated. We need to focus on getting out of this economic climate before we make major changes to healthcare on a system-wide level; our country can't handle taking a hit if this whole thing flops right now. To me, it makes no sense to be doing this now. Concept on paper vs. real world are very different. I really don't know enough about specifics to get in to a micro debate; again this is going off of the predictions of our hospital in anticipation of the outcome of the bill. I work for NYP which is ranked #6 or 7 in the U.S. and is quite large; they know their shit and they have people that have reviewed every detail. We had about a 2 hour lecture on anticipated changes we should expect to see after the bill is passed, and not a single thing they said was good in any way.

You're making sweeping generalizations based on a very limited sample of the situation at large. Of course the administrators of your hospital are not happy about the new healthcare law; it closes loopholes they were able to abuse to increase profits at the expense of patients and taxpayers. The shutdowns and mergers are in many cases not designed to afford the changes being enacted they're designed to preserve profit margins. You wrote earlier about "huge corrupt pharmaceutical corporations" do you think your corporation is immune to the same temptations?

Of course the law isn't going to go as planned; in the words of Eisenhower "plans are useless but planning is invaluable." The current healthcare system, if left unmodified, will only damage the economic climate further. How will doing nothing help?

Also, how is talking about the actual changes implemented by the law (it is a law by the way, the "bill is passed" as of 3 years ago) a micro debate? This is not a law that is intended to make everyone rich and happy, its a law to make people and companies take responsibility for their actions.

People have talked about the dangers of living beyond one's means, but guess what, THE CURRENT HEALTHCARE SYSTEM IS LIVING BEYOND IT'S MEANS. It *HAS* to change and its going to suck for a little bit when it does, whether that's right now or somewhere down the road. This law isn't all that unreasonable, it's comprised of a bunch of relatively minor changes that get the ball rolling, if you sit down and actually research it that should become fairly clear. Instead people keep throwing out general statements about how its going to fail spectacularly, offering little and often incorrect reasons why, citing "people who know what they're talking about" as their evidence. Well guess what, "people who know what they're talking about" have also said things will go just fine. Odds are, they're both wrong, and we'll see how the chips fall.

But I'm tired of people just fighting because someone else tells them to. This shutdown is pissing me off, because from day one everyone's been wondering "who's going to win?" This isn't about democrats vs republicans, this isn't about votes. This is about real people and trying to live, but everyone with the power to do something is solely interested in maintaining that power, and they'll say anything they can to keep you happy with that.
 
You're making sweeping generalizations based on a very limited sample of the situation at large. Of course the administrators of your hospital are not happy about the new healthcare law; it closes loopholes they were able to abuse to increase profits at the expense of patients and taxpayers. The shutdowns and mergers are in many cases not designed to afford the changes being enacted they're designed to preserve profit margins. You wrote earlier about "huge corrupt pharmaceutical corporations" do you think your corporation is immune to the same temptations?
My hospital corporation is a non profit; all profits go toward improving care/upgrading/purchasing new equipment/paying employees so what they are really taking money away from is the quality of care.
 
My hospital corporation is a non profit; all profits go toward improving care/upgrading/purchasing new equipment/paying employees so what they are really taking money away from is the quality of care.

Non profit designation doesn't make it immune to greed; the higher ups still make multi-million dollar salaries. Do you think they'll cut those at all before sacrificing quality of care? I have no doubt that they want to help people but its not their only motivation, same as with any other business.

Do you think that the current healthcare system in our country is sustainable?
 
Non profit designation doesn't make it immune to greed; the higher ups still make multi-million dollar salaries. Do you think they'll cut those at all before sacrificing quality of care? I have no doubt that they want to help people but its not their only motivation, same as with any other business.

Do you think that the current healthcare system in our country is sustainable?
I think it's more sustainable than medicare, medicaid, and social security, which is what we seem to be hitchiing more and more wagons to.

I recognize that it is not socialized healthcare, the governement is not providing the insurance directly. However, the government is mandating the use, types of care, and cost of care that doctors, hospitals, insurers, and individuals are required to follow. It's a few steps removed from socialization, but still closer than I care to go.

I just don't see that our healthcare system was in such a huge state of crisis. People weren't being denied care because of lack of insurance or lack of money. Those that wanted insurance could get it or get onto a governement program. The only exceptions were the ones that were too sick to qualify because they were too stupid to get insurance while they were still healthy. ObamaCare is trying to force the stupid people to do something they don't want to do. I appreciate the sentiment, but I don't think more government control is the answer.
 
Non profit designation doesn't make it immune to greed; the higher ups still make multi-million dollar salaries. Do you think they'll cut those at all before sacrificing quality of care? I have no doubt that they want to help people but its not their only motivation, same as with any other business.

Do you think that the current healthcare system in our country is sustainable?
What isn't sustainable is our food and sedentary lifestyle. No matter what the system, there is no way for us to support the growing population of chronically ill persons. We need to overhaul the FDA and insurance companies need to start giving perks for healthy lifestyle choices that are real tangible benefits. The baby boomers are going to start hitting the age of dependance soon and no matter how you structure the healthcare system it is going to suck. We need to focus more on driving down costs at the root, not as an afterthought. We can no longer pay to keep people chronically ill. There are definitely problems with the way doctors prescribe and overuse of needless procedures, sure. That is something that needs to be looked at as well. I don't think a drastic change in our system is going to help the core issues we face as a country. There's a great documentary about it called "Escape Fire" and I really like the way they approach these problems.

So, while I am not in any way saying our current system is perfect, I also don't see changing things from the tail end as the right solution.
 
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A weather update out of Anchorhead, AL. If you want to know what's REALLY on their minds, read the first letter of each line from top to bottom.
 
The only exceptions were the ones that were too sick to qualify because they were too stupid to get insurance while they were still healthy.

So you are saying if somebody is born bodily or mentally retarded, he was to stupid to get a insurance while they were still healthy?
Or if somebody gets a chronic disease and the insurance drops him because he is to expensive?
Or if somebody starts up a new company and does it with zero income, so he cannot afford insurance at this time?
 
So you are saying if somebody is born bodily or mentally retarded, he was to stupid to get a insurance while they were still healthy?
Or if somebody gets a chronic disease and the insurance drops him because he is to expensive?
Or if somebody starts up a new company and does it with zero income, so he cannot afford insurance at this time?


Let's look at my entire statement instead of just one sentence:


I just don't see that our healthcare system was in such a huge state of crisis. People weren't being denied care because of lack of insurance or lack of money. Those that wanted insurance could get it or get onto a governement program. The only exceptions were the ones that were too sick to qualify because they were too stupid to get insurance while they were still healthy. ObamaCare is trying to force the stupid people to do something they don't want to do. I appreciate the sentiment, but I don't think more government control is the answer.

The mentally ill or retarded have recourse to government programs and charities that are set up specifically for them, so the stupid comment does not apply.

Insurance companies CANNOT drop some one because they get sick, nor can they raise the premiums on them suddenly. If they try that, they will be sued for millions of dollars. I don't know where the idea that health insurance companies can do that comes from. It's not like car insurance. Once you are approved at a premium- that's your premium and it CANNOT be raised or canceled due to health changes as long as you hold that plan.

Someone who uses all their money to make a business and chooses not to buy health insurance to save money is taking a calculated risk. That's on them. I say that's stupid, but that's a matter of opinion. Should the government force that person to pay for health insurance even though it would mean they could no longer afford their business? I think that should be the individual's choice, not government's mandate.
 
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