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Government shuts down: Deadline reached

Red Omen said:
Forever 21, one of the examples in the article, is an immensely profitable company. They had profits of $3.4 billion last year. It's not that they can't afford to cover workers' health insurance; they don't want to because they can shave off overhead by pinching pennies. That speaks more of their avarice and duplicity than of a failing in the law.
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And they like to keep their profits u there. I never said it was moral or that they can't afford it but raising the minimum wage would only hurt the general public
Red Omen said:
Here's a counter-opinion to the first article - the minimum wage does not cause inflation. The guy who wrote that identifies as an Austrian-school economist, which is based on inaccurate models that aren't borne out by empirical data. Rather than evidence, it relies on something called "praxeology" (i.e. bullshit). It is considered by serious economists to be pseudoscience. The only country that uses something approaching an Austrian model is, um, Somalia. And they're doing great, right?
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Most of my links pull from all across the web. The only non-liberal bastards i have seen is the Fox News one. However i will say this, not everything you find on the internet is all true. Thats why i base most of my reasoning on real world events. Think back to the last raise in in 2009 when it was raised to $7.25. The inflation that we saw then was insane. I remember it clearly because i was stil somewhat new to the workforce and was excited for the increase until the trickle effect happened and slowly gas prices rose, grocery items started going u and all around prices soared higher. That is what we call INFLATION
 
Baldoraxx said:
And they like to keep their profits u there. I never said it was moral or that they can't afford it but raising the minimum wage would only hurt the general public
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The point about Forever 21 was about cutting hours to avoid paying for health insurance. The minimum wage thing was a different track. Now we're confusing ourselves.

Baldoraxx said:
Most of my links pull from all across the web. The only non-liberal bastards i have seen is the Fox News one.
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Liberal bastards? I've linked to mainstream sources like CNN, the New York Times, CBS, the Christian Science Monitor, and Politifact, as well as Brookings, a centrist think tank, and right-leaning financial publications like Bloomberg and Forbes. You've linked to an Austrian economist, The Heritage foundation, and a broken website.

Baldoraxx said:
Think back to the last raise in in 2009 when it was raised to $7.25. The inflation that we saw then was insane. I remember it clearly because i was stil somewhat new to the workforce and was excited for the increase until the trickle effect happened and slowly gas prices rose, grocery items started going u and all around prices soared higher. That is what we call INFLATION
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Correlation does not necessitate causation, and anecdotal evidence is not evidence. Again, the minimum wage does not cause inflation to any measurable degree. It's a contentious point, and one that we can go back and forth on for a while.
 
Red Omen said:
The point about Forever 21 was about cutting hours to avoid paying for health insurance. The minimum wage thing was a different track. Now we're confusing ourselves.


Liberal bastards? I've linked to mainstream sources like CNN, the New York Times, CBS, the Christian Science Monitor, and Politifact, as well as Brookings, a centrist think tank, and right-leaning financial publications like Bloomberg and Forbes. You've linked to an Austrian economist, The Heritage foundation, and a broken website.


Correlation does not necessitate causation, and anecdotal evidence is not evidence. Again, the minimum wage does not cause inflation to any measurable degree. It's a contentious point, and one that we can go back and forth on for a while.
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Since apparently this isn't getting anywhere, kinda like the whole government shutdown and Dems holding everything up. Lets get back on track here. News
 
Red Omen said:
Yes, the law relies on near-universal participation to function properly. Republicans at the state level have been working to sabotage it, of course. The law is by no means perfect, and it will hurt if it's not executed properly.[DOUBLEPOST=1380731283,1380730936][/DOUBLEPOST]Just going through all my posts and rating them "shocked" is not a compelling counter-argument.
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Maybe you'll get an achievement if you collect enough of them. tr1age, take note!
 
I really don't understand how there's still fire in this fight. Sure, republicans and democrats will fight each other tooth and nail on everything for the foreseeable future because that's just how politics have evolved, but why did the republicans decide to throw down on this? There's no compromise available (the options seem to be fund, or don't fund the Affordable Care Act) and I don't see how this breaks in their favor.

Frankly I was surprised they took it this far, I thought House republicans have been waging a symbolic war against the Affordable Care Act to keep their base happy; they have a lot of donors in the healthcare industry and everyone in healthcare wants it to stay where it is. It feels like a few members of congress didn't get the memo that this wasn't supposed to be a *real* fight and dragged the GOP in over its head.

The Affordable Care Act isn't perfect sure, its a compromise between all the competing interests in the field. Everyone in healthcare knew the old system was unsustainable and that we were heading for a pretty big implosion, but as grumpy as they might be that they didn't get everything they wanted they're happy we've done something to help prevent it. Everyone from insurers to hospitals and biotech companies have already forked out millions getting ready for this thing, why pull the rug out from under them now? They'd have to spend millions to adjust back to the way things were with the uncertainty of how many millions they'd have to spend to adjust to whatever came next. Defunding/delaying/repealing the Affordable Care Act would have a huge negative impact on the economy because it would spread uncertainty like a plague and uncertainty kills investment, and investors are biotech's life support. That's why there are all these biotech CEOs crusading in the media to leave it alone.

This situation has me legitimately concerned, which I haven't been in a while. The government's ineptitude is a fact of life but this time its pretty dangerous. Democrats aren't going to cave because if they do then that's it, shows over, pack up and go home because they won't get any more traction this election cycle. Republicans don't seem like they're going to cave because they started this whole mess and don't want to lose two shutdowns in a row. Looming over all of this is the even larger concern: the debt ceiling fight that's coming in a few weeks, and that could be a *real* disaster.
 
Corvus Rex said:
The Affordable Care Act isn't perfect sure, its a compromise between all the competing interests in the field. Everyone in healthcare knew the old system was unsustainable and that we were heading for a pretty big implosion, but as grumpy as they might be that they didn't get everything they wanted they're happy we've done something to help prevent it. Everyone from insurers to hospitals and biotech companies have already forked out millions getting ready for this thing, why pull the rug out from under them now? They'd have to spend millions to adjust back to the way things were with the uncertainty of how many millions they'd have to spend to adjust to whatever came next. Defunding/delaying/repealing the Affordable Care Act would have a huge negative impact on the economy because it would spread uncertainty like a plague and uncertainty kills investment, and investors are biotech's life support. That's why there are all these biotech CEOs crusading in the media to leave it alone.
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Hospitals stand to lose a ton of money because of Obamacare, I foresee many more hospital closures/mergers with larger corporations (ironic that a democrat came up with a plan that would result in greater corporate takeover and greed). As it is the way Medicare/Medicaid reimburse being altered has hit hospitals hard. It makes no sense to take money away from hospitals as punishment for issues with care; this is only going to make conditions that much worse. Trust me, there are going to be a lot of problems with the Affordable Care Act. My hospital system is anticipating having to maintain a budget cut of 150 million after it passes, and smaller hospitals that aren't prepared to take the hit they will incur from this act will shut down or be absorbed. The rich will still have private insurance and access to better healthcare, and the poor will be stuck with an overcrowded, underfunded system.
 
Crake said:
Hospitals stand to lose a ton of money because of Obamacare, I foresee many more hospital closures/mergers with larger corporations (ironic that a democrat came up with a plan that would result in greater corporate takeover and greed). As it is the way Medicare/Medicaid reimburse being altered has hit hospitals hard. It makes no sense to take money away from hospitals as punishment for issues with care; this is only going to make conditions that much worse. Trust me, there are going to be a lot of problems with the Affordable Care Act. My hospital system is anticipating having to maintain a budget cut of 150 million after it passes, and smaller hospitals that aren't prepared to take the hit they will incur from this act will shut down or be absorbed. The rich will still have private insurance and access to better healthcare, and the poor will be stuck with an overcrowded, underfunded system.
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From a medical professional's perspective, do you think that it should be stopped at almost any cost, or do you think Republicans are going too far?
 
Keleynal said:
From a medical professional's perspective, do you think that it should be stopped at almost any cost, or do you think Republicans are going too far?
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Frankly I'm terrified of what will happen when this bill passes, and I think by the time everyone else realizes what has happened it will be too late. Our country's culture can't handle something like this.
 
Crake said:
Frankly I'm terrified of what will happen when this bill passes, and I think by the time everyone else realizes what has happened it will be too late. Our country's culture can't handle something like this.
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I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but it is already passed. Republican's are trying far-fetched last ditch effort type stuff at this point.
 
Crake said:
Hospitals stand to lose a ton of money because of Obamacare, I foresee many more hospital closures/mergers with larger corporations (ironic that a democrat came up with a plan that would result in greater corporate takeover and greed). As it is the way Medicare/Medicaid reimburse being altered has hit hospitals hard. It makes no sense to take money away from hospitals as punishment for issues with care; this is only going to make conditions that much worse. Trust me, there are going to be a lot of problems with the Affordable Care Act. My hospital system is anticipating having to maintain a budget cut of 150 million after it passes, and smaller hospitals that aren't prepared to take the hit they will incur from this act will shut down or be absorbed. The rich will still have private insurance and access to better healthcare, and the poor will be stuck with an overcrowded, underfunded system.
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Of course hospitals stand to lose a ton of money, everyone in the healthcare industry stands to lose a ton of money. As I mentioned before the Affordable Care Act isn't perfect. I don't think the government can swoop in and save the day but no one else was; we were on track to fall apart and things had to change. Our choices are to rip the bandaid off (let the law continue as intended) pull it off slowly (delay the law) or leave it on and let it fester (repeal the law). This pulling it off and sticking it back on is ridiculous.
 
Corvus Rex said:
Of course hospitals stand to lose a ton of money, everyone in the healthcare industry stands to lose a ton of money. As I mentioned before the Affordable Care Act isn't perfect. I don't think the government can swoop in and save the day but no one else was; we were on track to fall apart and things had to change. Our choices are to rip the bandaid off (let the law continue as intended) pull it off slowly (delay the law) or leave it on and let it fester (repeal the law). This pulling it off and sticking it back on is ridiculous.
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My concern is that when we rip the bandaid off, we will bleed out.
 
We will if Republicans keep stabbing the wound to spite Johnson & Johnson.

Let's see how long we can keep this metaphor going.
 
Keleynal said:
My concern is that when we rip the bandaid off, we will bleed out.
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How would we bleed out though? People will always need medical treatment, more people will be paying into the system, and they'll have access to better care (i.e. actually seeing a doctor for something small before something big lands them in the emergency room). I can certainly see problems arising with how its implemented and making sure people are able to get decent care. I can even see some financial issues arising as companies adjust, but I don't see any issues coming up that can't be addressed before they lead us to "bleed out."[DOUBLEPOST=1380854884,1380854681][/DOUBLEPOST]
Red Omen said:
Let's see how long we can keep this metaphor going.
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Maybe they can rub some bacitracin on it and actually get some of these limited funding bills passed. Having 3 people on watch *nationally* for foodborne illness outbreaks gives me the willies.
 
You're making some pretty big assumptions about how well and efficiently it is going to be run. I'm extremely skeptical if it working out. I just don't see why a healthy 20 year old would buy insurance. The penalty would probably cost them less. And then when they get in a car accident, they will get treatment in an ER and we will all pay for it, so nohting fixed there.

I think a lot of people will opt for the cheaper penalty. Why not? If insurance can't decline pre-existing conditions, then what's the point of paying extra? Why would they go get preventative care that costs extra when they can just ignore it til they need it?

This Act needs to be cauterized before the gangrene sets in.
 
Corvus Rex said:
How would we bleed out though? People will always need medical treatment, more people will be paying into the system, and they'll have access to better care (i.e. actually seeing a doctor for something small before something big lands them in the emergency room). I can certainly see problems arising with how its implemented and making sure people are able to get decent care. I can even see some financial issues arising as companies adjust, but I don't see any issues coming up that can't be addressed before they lead us to "bleed out."[DOUBLEPOST=1380854884,1380854681][/DOUBLEPOST]

Maybe they can rub some bacitracin on it and actually get some of these limited funding bills passed. Having 3 people on watch *nationally* for foodborne illness outbreaks gives me the willies.
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Better care is unlikely. As it is now primary care docs get reimbursed based on quantity, not quality. With quantity increasing there will continue to be drops in quality, along with budget cuts that further reduce the quality. E.R. waits are also slated to increase pretty drastically as well. What we NEED to do is, instead of 'fixing' the current system, we need to start fixing people. A major part of the problem is corporate corruption, especially with drug companies. We are also a country that jumps to medication over common sense things like EXERCISE. Our culture is not in need of more high-end health care, we are in need of a cultural shift to increase prophylaxis in the form of exercise. The other issue is our food production, which is also adding to our healthcare costs. The chemicals and crap we consume are terrible in this country. If we were able to change these, then maybe just maybe somewhere down the line we could make universal health coverage work. Healthier people = less crowding, cheaper insurance premiums, lower taxes, etc.

Not to mention insurance coverage provided by the government has never really worked, what makes us think it will work now?

Keleynal said:
You're making some pretty big assumptions about how well and efficiently it is going to be run. I'm extremely skeptical if it working out. I just don't see why a healthy 20 year old would buy insurance. The penalty would probably cost them less. And then when they get in a car accident, they will get treatment in an ER and we will all pay for it, so nothing fixed there.

I think a lot of people will opt for the cheaper penalty. Why not? If insurance can't decline pre-existing conditions, then what's the point of paying extra? Why would they go get preventative care that costs extra when they can just ignore it til they need it?

This Act needs to be cauterized before the gangrene sets in.
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There will be a lot of people that will not only opt to not take the insurance, but will also just plain not pay the penalty as well. We will still be footing the bill on all of them but without them paying a portion. Hell there are people that qualify for medicaid that don't even bother getting it because they just don't care; they know they can't get denied by the E.R. so they just rip up the bill when it comes.
 
Crake said:
There will be a lot of people that will not only opt to not take the insurance, but will also just plain not pay the penalty as well. We will still be footing the bill on all of them but without them paying a portion. Hell there are people that qualify for medicaid that don't even bother getting it because they just don't care; they know they can't get denied by the E.R. so they just rip up the bill when it comes.
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You can do that?! Screw health insurance!

In all seriousness I haven't followed the entire issue that closely. I have health insurance through work and it covers my family. It doesn't really apply to me does it?
 
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