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I agree. Subs seem the way to go for the highest quality games. I'm just wondering if there is some sort of F2P model that we haven't seen yet that could sustain a high quality game. Personally, I don't think it's viable for a top MMO to be F2P and maintain it's quality and profitability.

Hopefully the hybridization is close to what WoW did, where you can buy mounts and pets and stuff like that.
 
It is also a lot harder to convince others to sub these days with so much f2p. The "f2p" model is also a lot more profitable. Shit tf2 made 10 million off of a single hat cosmetic item alone. Companies are watching this model and trying to perfect it for large scale games not iPad games. Problem is the overhead an mmo takes to get out the door and then maintain. Quality being subs is just an idea we associate with world of Warcraft. It isn't the way it has to be and I highly suspect a new hybrid model from carbine. I just hope it doesn't make you feel like you aren't enjoying content or make you want to sub for all the things.

Generals the new c and c game is going f2p but buying generals LOL style. Even there growing up with that game I hold onto the idea that I would have preferred to pay all at once but it is a smart move and a very profitable trend.

In the end I believe they will do something we all can be happy with and if the game delivers no matter what their model is: word of mouth is the best pay model out there.
 
Keleynal said:
I tend to agree, but is this because we haven't seen F2P done perfectly yet? I think it would be very hard to have a complete F2P game and still have strong enough incentives to make a profit. But maybe someday someone will figure out how to do it.
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We have actually seen some amazing f2p models be successful but mostly in the mobile gaming sphere. Clash of clans for one and temple run plus clash of clans is very well done and the cash shop pays for expansion. Shit even facebook games in some sense but people caught on to the bullshit if Facebook games playing off the gambling side of people vs quality. The new generation of f2p has to be better and more aware as we see new titles released. And that is a reported on fact. You still however and unfortunately can get away with a pay to win game and people will pay, but longevity in those games rarely exists specially since the zynga Facebook boom opened the eyes of many consumers in our age range.
 
Mobile games are casual and directed at the newbie gamer market mostly. Hardcore gamers don't need to buy the bs to beat the games and can see through the uselessness of paying them .25 to speed up a 2 minute process. I think applying those concepts to an MMO won't get you too far, especially if your target market is hardcore players looking for the next big thing.
 
Keleynal said:
Mobile games are casual and directed at the newbie gamer market mostly. Hardcore gamers don't need to buy the bs to beat the games and can see through the uselessness of paying them .25 to speed up a 2 minute process. I think applying those concepts to an MMO won't get you too far, especially if your target market is hardcore players looking for the next big thing.
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You would be amazed at the hardcores who play mobile games AND spend lots of money. Anyway all I am sayin is there are very viable models out there and a solution. Someone just needs to figure it out instead of attaching "sub = good" labels to things.
 
Also people seriously need to tone back the damn definition of successful.

But if you go off that idea of what it means now there are so many games since wow that tried sub post f2p model popularity and all failed with a passion. By those standards. Wow is a very old game and came in when subs were common place. So we will see we will see.
 
tr1age said:
Also people seriously need to tone back the damn definition of successful.

But if you go off that idea of what it means now there are so many games since wow that tried sub post f2p model popularity and all failed with a passion. By those standards. Wow is a very old game and came in when subs were common place. So we will see we will see.
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How much content do they have for longevity though? I know SWTOR -IS- successful, especially after it went F2P. Doesn't mean I like being prompted every 5 minutes about cash shop items or having to pay to have a profession.
 
Count me in for this game...after Swtor, Tera, and Neverwinter being failboats I cant wait for a game that atleast LOOKS like something new (yet somewhat familiar of the olden WoW days). Prob going to be an explorer because jumping puzzles are my jam. And I'm thinking healer but as of late I have found that in order to be a good healer in MMO's my char has to be big, green, and naked 94% of the time so I'm hoping one of the last races to be announced will be said description. Maybe :>

Oh and also hello, I bez new and am a good friend of Fen's.
 
If you want to look at the success of F2P games just look at mobas like lol and smite. They are hardcore, yet free. Takes tons of time to get good. They will give you all the champs/gods for free, but you have to work insanely hard for them. Most people break down and buy them, usually spending way more than a sub would cost.

F2P is way more profitable than sub based, the only reason people think F2P is worse is because of their own biases not because of actual quality of games under the model.
 
When it comes to most games (aka non MMOs) I prefer a "pay once, and can pay for extra cosmetic crap" method. There are some cases where I dont like this (*coughEAday1DLCcough*) but for the most part it tends to come out nicely. I mean just look at Dota 2 and TF2, granted right now both are "free" but TF2 had a decent run of being 1 time payment and Dota 2 upon release will be also (though considering the amount of invites in my inv I dont think too many people will end up buying the damm thing because they are already playing it).

Unlike LoL with its "oh hey grind with these selected F2P heros and then after enough sadness buy something you actually want", you get everything gameplay-wise, but can pay to style yourself up (also I know you can buy weapons in TF2, but keep in mind you can even craft them if you melt down other crap you dont need...not to mention the weaps really arent THAT much better, rather they just offer a different playstle).

But with MMO's it kind of just makes sense to have it be sub based. I mean GW2 did the one time pay and what you got was what came with launch, some heroic dungeons and what little trickled in afterwards. If you want a game that has developers making content constantly, they need a constant paycheck, and subs will do that much easier than having to leanback purely on people buying funny hats or a different skin.
 
ThatOneGuy said:
If you want to look at the success of F2P games just look at mobas like lol and smite. They are hardcore, yet free. Takes tons of time to get good. They will give you all the champs/gods for free, but you have to work insanely hard for them. Most people break down and buy them, usually spending way more than a sub would cost.

F2P is way more profitable than sub based, the only reason people think F2P is worse is because of their own biases not because of actual quality of games under the model.
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They also aren't MMO's so it's out of context =P
 
I'll pay a sub, idc as along as it is worth it. (/sideglance FF14 /shakefist) besides, if something makes you money then it's successful IMHO, simple as that.
on the topic of hybrid sub models I believe that the new one on Shadowrun online is very interesting with a mix of F2P < B2P < P2P tier system I just hope it doesn't flunk... /shrug
 
I don't know, in MMOs I feel like F2P models have only been implemented once the game was recognized as a failure by the public and the developer.
I cannot think at the top of my head of an MMO that released as F2P and can be considered a success, yes some (terrible) P2P games did have more success when they moved to F2P but that is precisely due to the fact that no sane person would pay money monthly to play a bad game, while a free "bad" game can still be a fun pass time (and you can play only the good parts while ignoring all the crappy parts in a free mmo take SWOTOR I only play it for putball pvp).

I guess that the difference between MMO F2P and Moba F2P (which is why you can't compare the two) is purely based on the content expected by the players. In an MMO people cannot be satisfied by purely cosmetic gear and cutsy fun events, they require a sense of achievement tied to that piece of "cosmetic gear" as they are creating that character from scratch. Take the new trasmog helmets in WoW, I have the money to buy them, but will I? ABSOLUTELY NO! because even if they look cool they do not satisfy me in any way shape or form, just like any purchasable mount or pet, I did not achieve it I BOUGHT it, and in an MMORPG player's mind that is pretty much unacceptable (just imagine cheating in skyrim to get your full set of dragon armor just to look cool). I prefer a million times to farm Molten core for my badass T1 warlock set than to buy a helmet skin because that is what MMORPGs are about, developing a character from scratch by PLAYING the game.

What about XP boosts, Rep boosts and all that other junk? well they are also terribly unballanced and do not belong in a MMORPG, and I do not care what other people say, to me that is pay to win, the moment in which by paying 5$ you get to reach a level faster or reach exalted with a faction faster you are effectively enhancing your chance to gear up your character (which again is the point of a MMORPG). These boosts can only work in a ballanced way once the game has been out for a while and there is no more competition in achieving Tier 1 raiding gear, racing to level cap, or racing to reputation caps, but on release they are absolutely unacceptable.

What about character slots, bags, and other commodities, well I have less issues with them, however, I still think that they ruin the initial progression of the game. For example on release a guy with 20$ to throw will be able to level professions faster with larger bag slots. (character slots are fine at any point).

Unlike an MMO, a Moba is based on premade CHAMPIONS, this means that you have no real sense of achievement tied to the cosmetic / performance aspect of the champion. Other than particular skins (such as triumphant Ryze in LoL) 99.9% of skins have absolutely no other purpose than making you like that particular champion more. I'd say that what you buy in MMORPG f2p games would be more like if in a MOBA you could buy ladder points (in other words removing the purpose of why you are playing, trading in money in order to put less effort in the game).

In conclusion what I'm trying to say is that the F2P model in MMOs only truly works in a ballanced and effective way after the game and its player base has consolidated and the game no longer has a "hardcore" competitive aspect (rushing to cap, competitive pve/pvp). In mobas this isn't a problem because in the cash shops money does not replace effort, which is precisely what money cash shops remove in MMORPGs effort.

Sorry for the long rant, but I wanted to put my 2 cents in the discussion.

PS: long live the subscription model!
 
On F2P vs Subs.
It might just be my twisted mind, but F2P-Games tend to have worse costumer service. I had Problems with my Battle.net account 3 times so far and it was very easy to solve this over the phone. Also if I had a problem ingame and needed an GM I was always treated friendly.
F2P do not invest much in this.
I´d personally go for EvE´s hybrid model with cash shop. In the cash shop there would be cosmetic stuff and additional char slots or char rename items.
It usually doesn´t bother me if you can buy exp-boosts if you don´t need them (I mean if I do all/a majority of the quests in an area I should be a high enough level to get to the next area)
 
I feel as tho there is so much diversity out there between people who would rather sub, and vice versa with F2P, ( and I believe the executive producer Jeremy had almost said this once in an interview but i forget where) That they are gonna do some kinda Hybrid payment model. Now keep in mind this is not set in stone and is purely just my opinion, but I believe they will have to do something like that because the issue can be very touchy, when it comes to what players prefer. That way they dont feel as the game is just robbing them of there money. once again just my opinion.

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Heal, Heal, Heal, through the damage that you Deal, Deal, Deal.

Hey I'll survive by the power of the Light, cuz Ima Paladin if I try I win.

Tankadin FTW!!!!
 
HRPJamadinFTW said:
I feel as tho there is so much diversity out there between people who would rather sub, and vice versa with F2P, ( and I believe the executive producer Jeremy had almost said this once in an interview but i forget where) That they are gonna do some kinda Hybrid payment model. Now keep in mind this is not set in stone and is purely just my opinion, but I believe they will have to do something like that because the issue can be very touchy, when it comes to what players prefer. That way they dont feel as the game is just robbing them of there money. once again just my opinion.
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So what you are saying is your way or the highway?
 
I feel like this game seems to have been designed from the ground up to be a Sub based game with varying degrees of subness.

5/mth - Closer to F2P area (fair amount of restrictions on things)
10/mth - Middle Ground
15/mth - Fully available

Just my opinion. Might be a cash shop for silly things that have nothing to do with anything (hopefully).

Edit: Why the hell are we talking about payment model in the recruitment thread? /confused.
 
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