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The holy Trinity

E

Euchale

Crazy German Guy
Dear everyone,

I´ve heard a lot of discussion on trinity (Tank, Heal, DPS) in MMORPGs. Now I wonder, what is your opinion on this? Also what are your favorite group compositions.

I really like trinity, because if everybody can do everything it means that nobody is special. A good alternative to the 5 -man 1 Tank, 1 heal, 3 DPS would be replacing one DPS with a class that is buffer/debuffer. Also if a game forces me to, I could life without tanks, so all DPS has to evade attacks from enemys and healer have to heal if someone fails.
Perfect group size for me is 6 people. I really liked it in AoC when you could decide to either bring an additional tank or heal or DPS with you depended on what is needed. We´ve also been running around in 2 Tank, 2 Heal, 2 DPS groups. This made grouping easier if you happen to have a friend who wants to play the same class as you (this happens to me a lot).
Now let´s hear you opinion on this.
 
Well, GW2 was the first effective elimination of a trinity. It was great for solo play, but in a group with group type challenges it failed. You really want a tank to be able to control the boss. No trinity means real chaos and disorganization. That in turn means they have to tune down the encounters. It was a good idea to try, but really failed because of the consequences of the changes.

After GW2 I realize that the trinity is the way to go for organized group play. It gives you a command structure, support structure, and the grunts that do the grunt work.

As for a buff bot class, what would they do after they buff? stand around? they can't heal, dps, or tank. That's why imo buffing should be tacked on to the other 3 archetypes tool box.
 
ThatOneGuy said:
As for a buff bot class, what would they do after they buff? stand around? they can't heal, dps, or tank. That's why imo buffing should be tacked on to the other 3 archetypes tool box.
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I think of it more like this: The class can make a unit wet and then use a Ice spell On friendly members this would increase resistance and on enemys it would freeze them in place/slow them down. If you use electrocute it would speed up friendlies and stun enemys. And the buffs/debuffs last only for 10 sec or something. But this is just an idea, nothing that I necessarily want to see in a game, because I can see huge balancing issues.
 
I guess the real problem with a buff bot is that they don't feel like they are doing anything that directly helps the group kill the thing.
 
My favorite groups were always 1 tank, 1 healer, 2 crowd control/dps, 1 pure dps. I have also seen on rare occasion where in even small groups, having an off-tank can be effective with switching and good aggro control.
 
Well since my first and main MMO was WoW, I pretty much know the group of 5, 10, 25, and 40 compositions (although 40 was awhile ago). Since we are referring to small group play that means Tank, Heal, and 3 DPS. Each of these usually have some sort of CC or support feature, which may or may not be used (Hunter Trap, Rogue Blind, Priest Fear). I enjoyed classes having that type of flavour as opposed to DPS ONLY having damaging skills.
 
I think the biggest thing GW2 failed with was that even though they successfully removed the Trinity, they removed the sense of "group play".

GW's 2, I feel alone... wrote about this awhile ago so here ya go: http://alttabme.com/forum/index.php?threads/gw2-i-feel-alone.2662/

Now if they could have rewarded "support" and damage better. Then I am all for getting rid of the trinity, but I think right now no one has had the right idea to support it yet.

Wildstar is going a nice direction of allowing you to on the fly spec. I like that a lot.
 
You know I was excited about the whole "no holy trinity" gimmic, but after a couple months and a few max lvl characters I miss it. I miss having that responsibility of timing my heals just right or being the last hope for the raid not to wipe.
 
I agree with T1g and Tristan that while GW2 did a good job at removing the trinity, they also did a good job at removing any fun in a dungeon/raid type setting. I ran in a small group of 5-6 friends and when we got into a dungeon it was madness because no one could keep aggro or people kept dying because of lack of heals. It was probably because we weren't use to it, but it was also because of the gameplay mechanics.

I am in favor of a 5man dungeon team with 1 tank, 1 healer, and 3 dps. I also like having a buffer/debuffer/crowd control type class instead of a 3rd DPS. Someone that can help heal and run buffs. Rift did this Support class really well allowing each of the 4 archetypes to have some kind of support utility.

In a game like wildstar though that only gives classes 2 different role types, it would be hard to add a 4th role without expanding on each classes' capabilities. I think it would be easier to add buffs/debuffs/cc into the trinity.
 
I forget who posted or said it but I remember someone saying GW2 dungeons were nothing but chaos which I agree with. Never felt like I was working with a team. It was do damage and try and keep myself alive and depend on nobody.
 
Don't forget that WS is giving every class the ability to be DPS or Heal/Tank. Also the fact that they give you tons of spells to use then you choose 8 from that list lets you be a pure class, or a hybrid, or a utility player like a buff bot.
 
ThatOneGuy said:
Don't forget that WS is giving every class the ability to be DPS or Heal/Tank. Also the fact that they give you tons of spells to use then you choose 8 from that list lets you be a pure class, or a hybrid, or a utility player like a buff bot.
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Which could also turn into all healing classes have to heal themself and all the tanking classes have enoughHP/Def to survive without heal. I hope they balance this out.
 
ThatOneGuy said:
Don't forget that WS is giving every class the ability to be DPS or Heal/Tank. Also the fact that they give you tons of spells to use then you choose 8 from that list lets you be a pure class, or a hybrid, or a utility player like a buff bot.
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I guess that's where support roles will come in. You will be a mix of your DPS and Heal/Tank skills to be able to do some damage and throw out a heal here and there.

I guess it also depends if they limit which skills can go into which slots. If you get the option to pick any 8 skills then you will have a lot more freedom. If not and certain spells are locked to certain slots then its more of a choice between a high powered DPS spell or a strong heal. I'm not sure which I would be more of a fan for. It'd be nice to have both a powerful DPS and a powerful heal, but there would need to be some downside to that.
 
GW2 took away the Holy Trinity, from what I could see, just to be different and do something new. Now I know there might be alot of anti-Wow players out there that hate Blizz now, but really? Why would you wanna throw out something that you know has proven to work, just to try to do something different. I could understand if they had a reason(A legitimate reason) to remove it then fine. While everyone may not like the HT, it works. Personal, I like that system as you can play different roles, for different gameplay styles, so you are not stuck with the same thing all the time. This goes back to the diversity of the game that keeps me playing.
 
Simpwn said:
I guess that's where support roles will come in. You will be a mix of your DPS and Heal/Tank skills to be able to do some damage and throw out a heal here and there.

I guess it also depends if they limit which skills can go into which slots. If you get the option to pick any 8 skills then you will have a lot more freedom. If not and certain spells are locked to certain slots then its more of a choice between a high powered DPS spell or a strong heal. I'm not sure which I would be more of a fan for. It'd be nice to have both a powerful DPS and a powerful heal, but there would need to be some downside to that.
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I'm sure they will have a downside and fully balance the way the spells work. One of the devs said in an interview a few months back that he plays his warrior as a very heavy cc/support class. He can't tank and he doesn't do the best dps, but he is the one who keeps the mobs in check for his group. He also spoke about choosing spells in that interview, so I'm hoping that any spell can be slotted into any slot of the 8.
Euchale said:
Which could also turn into all healing classes have to heal themself and all the tanking classes have enoughHP/Def to survive without heal. I hope they balance this out.
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I seriously doubt that it will happen that way. Carbine is focused on the trinity and they are trying to make the raids super hard and challenging. No way they can do that if everyone is self sustained. It would be like a solo game and they want 40 man cooperation.
 
HRPJamadinFTW said:
GW2 took away the Holy Trinity, from what I could see, just to be different and do something new. Now I know there might be alot of anti-Wow players out there that hate Blizz now, but really? Why would you wanna throw out something that you know has proven to work, just to try to do something different. I could understand if they had a reason(A legitimate reason) to remove it then fine. While everyone may not like the HT, it works. Personal, I like that system as you can play different roles, for different gameplay styles, so you are not stuck with the same thing all the time. This goes back to the diversity of the game that keeps me playing.
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It was worth a try and it worked well as far as the leveling and solo game goes. I was super hyped for it. Where it fell down was in group play. It made you play a totally different way and I don't think it was effective cause it was balanced for solo. I loved it as far as it went.
 
If there are no specific groups of people then I don't know who to be better than. I don't like that feel.
 
It was worth a try and it worked well as far as the leveling and solo game goes. I was super hyped for it. Where it fell down was in group play. It made you play a totally different way and I don't think it was effective cause it was balanced for solo. I loved it as far as it went.
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While I do agree with you that it worked really well for leveling and solo gameplay, is that what MMO's are about? I'll get back to this.Now you did mention first that it was worth the try. I would have to disagree with this, for the simple fact that, if they stuck with the HT, the overgaming might have been better and lasted long. As you probably know it has more flaws that just that, but for the sake of this thread I wont go there.

ok, Now the whole solo play. While every MMO out there (in the near future at least)will have some kinda solo gameplay. I dont think you should develop a game around it when its a MMO. You need to base the game around player interaction. Its obvious you have plenty of MMO experience so dont take this as I'm jumping down your throat like you dont know what your talking about. Thats not the case at all. You are simple trying to defend the development of GW2 when it was made bad and not worth defending. Thats the point I'm trying to get across here. It was made so bad in the MMO perspective as you can practically do everything you want solo, and thats just now how to make an MMO. anywayz digressing.....
Point being, dont take away the HT it works.
 
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