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Video Game Difficulty; When is the Line Crossed?

Where do you feel the multiplayer games of today stand?

  • Most multiplayer games are too hard.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Most multiplayer games have the right mix and easy and hard.

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    29

Thief

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This post will obviously revolve around MMOs and the upcoming Wildstar; however, the general idea is the same for all games.

My package arrives! I load up the system on the 42". Wow! How nice it was to experience classic Nintendo in Widescreen! I load up Kid Icarus, one of my favorites.

The music starts. Intensity sets in when the level 1 4/4 beat kicks into full progression. It's harder than I remember. I get to level 2...

WHOA!?!?!? I can barely do this! I keep dying on level 2! I finally get past it after several tries. When I did pass it, however, it was by the skin of my teeth. My heart was pounding at the finish line. I had to actually take a breather. I felt accomplished.

I felt accomplished.
Taken from an article by MikeB @ mmorpg.com
http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/staffblog/092011/22042_Community-Spotlight-Are-MMOs-Too-Easy

What are games of today doing to get this accomplished feeling? Well if you've played anything from facebook games to an MMORPG you've seen them pop up everywhere in the past several years. Achievements. Gaming companies have been placing achievements at every corner, on every item, and with every swing of your sword. They do this so the player can feel accomplished when they complete something, and want to push on for more. However, is "Planting the Bomb" (Counter-Strike) really an accomplishment?

My current feel is that when achievements originally came out they were a huge success. People even became known as "Achievement Whores". So what did the gaming industry do? They started making them, everywhere! Things that were suppose to be just part of the game, were turned into achievements. To make people become less frustrated and play their game more, the gaming industry decided to make things easier, dying over and over is never fun... Or is it?

I haven't researched these different examples, but know the Steve Jobs one is true. So i'm assuming they're all true.



If we never fail, can we truly succeed?

Also, this kind of goes alot with how nice & fast things are now in games.... one argument to what I have below is well, in games you use to not regen HP unless you picked up health orbs of some kind - was this change seen as bad when it was first done? Is it still bad?

Few notable changes,

Over the evolution of MMO's I've noticed some changes. These changes were at first begged and pleaded by some to be changed, but did they really help? What do I even mean? (I will use vanilla WoW as my primary base but the changes are true in general) In WoW, you would have to run far distances to get flight paths, even after getting the path you would have to fly from one place to another. Fast travel? Maybe but it's not instant. While flying you could do things like check your inventory, talk to guildies, make a sandwich, take a shower (for those long ones), get a drink, talk in general chat, etc etc... Now everything is switching to fast travel, I get where I'm going, do what I need and blink out to my next location. I feel this is one of the things that is destroying games. I see the positive of "Well I only have an hour of play time, I dont wanna spend 5 minutes flying" But ya know what? That was part of the game and it helped keep and improve the games sense of scale.

Another example that came up just recently was from Guild Wars 2 while myself and other friends were playing. Someone's bags were full and that person was told how to click a button and deposit all crafting/collectible materials instantly from anywhere. Do I use this function, yup, does it help me? Sure does... Do I want it in any other MMO ever? Nope. This goes along with making the game easier, I feel you should have a certain amount of bag space, and if you are full then you'll have to choose what to keep and what to trash. This helps keep some realism in the game. I use to love that in EQ, money affected your weight and could slow you down. I specifically recall going to the bank and converting my platinum into copper and not being able to move.

Flying mounts, I feel these need to stay out of games. In WoW BC it actually wasn't bad and flying mounts didn't take away too much from the sense of scale some how, in WoTLK however I just felt like I flew over everything. Same with other games. Staying away from flying mounts was like one thing I actually liked about GW2.

Joining instances, I really feel that if you want to join an instance or structured PVP type thing, that you should be at the entrance of the place and only be able to gain access that way. The idea that I can just queue and zone in from miles away goes along with that unrealistic feel again. (Finding groups anywhere is fine though obviously IMO, though I'm even still partial to having to find people in that zone or on your friends/guild list. This can also help build stronger communities by trying to befriend people so you have people to run instances with in the future, rather than just queuing up and getting a random group)


I'm really interested in the opinions of others on this. I really feel like they're trying to make things as "easy" as possible and it's taking away from the game.

Defend your thinking!
 
Games these days are super easy. Way too easy. Bring on the contras and super ghouls and ghosts and ninja gaidens and hell or hell mode devil may crys.
 
I'll be honest, I remember playing the Lion King on the old Super Nintendo for hours. To this day, that game was still one of the hardest games I've ever had the pleasure of beating! (Yes....the Lion King)
 
Added a photo and promoted this thread to front page news.


Lmao, nice touch.

Yeah, I feel like developers have lost the importance of a challenge. While some games incorporate "Hell Mode" type scenarios, these generally juts mean the creatures have more damage and hit-points; the actual game is the same.
 
Lmao, nice touch.

Yeah, I feel like developers have lost the importance of a challenge. While some games incorporate "Hell Mode" type scenarios, these generally juts mean the creatures have more damage and hit-points; the actual game is the same.


I do miss an actual feeling of "progression" when you get to the end. And valuing the effort you put into finding your gear and character, and having that fear of losing it.

The "Last of Us" is an example of a game that is paced to perfection yet so many people think it was too slow. Yet it had the most amazing narrative that couldn't be done otherwise.

Remember the old Thief games? They were slower than that. Games like that have trouble these days. People want to jump in and out, but ultimately that ends up hurting the genre as a whole.
 
I do miss an actual feeling of "progression" when you get to the end. And valuing the effort you put into finding your gear and character, and having that fear of losing it.

The "Last of Us" is an example of a game that is paced to perfection yet so many people think it was too slow. Yet it had the most amazing narrative that couldn't be done otherwise.

Remember the old Thief games? They were slower than that. Games like that have trouble these days. People want to jump in and out, but ultimately that ends up hurting the genre as a whole.

Exactly, I was just talking to someone earlier that was hoping the leveling wouldn't take forever in Wildstar... I had to try and explain to them that the game shouldn't just be the "end" game. An MMO should also be about the leveling and the journey, otherwise why don't they just start us at the level cap. I played Everquest for a decently long time and actually never made it to cap because it wasn't about that to me, I loved exploring and doing random things.
 
Exactly, I was just talking to someone earlier that was hoping the leveling wouldn't take forever in Wildstar... I had to try and explain to them that the game shouldn't just be the "end" game. An MMO should also be about the leveling and the journey, otherwise why don't they just start us at the level cap. I played Everquest for a decently long time and actually never made it to cap because it wasn't about that to me, I loved exploring and doing random things.


UO I was more xcited when a random friend game me a shield that they crafted. I hit skill caps at around a year and a half in. I didn't need level cap to be awesome :p
 
*Okay so i was putting this in thief's other post but i suppose ill just slip it in here even tho is it a little less on topic. *ponydurr: *

I swear to any power that may be listening anywhere in this universe or any other! the next developer that makes me do a vanilla wow level 10 Darnassus to Stormwind type Run will be Beaten to death with a SPOON! *ponydee: and at no point did ANYONE ever like walking to Friggen Scarlet monastery. You want to make us work for stuff; fine, but it cant be DIFFICULT, TEDIOUS AND BORING! there are limits *tantrum*


Oh I agree, games shouldn't be stupid in terms of "well you OBVIOUSLY have to walk". But they should be difficult in terms of "This feels like I worked for it". DayZ perfect example of "dumb realism"

No name plates and spawning randomly on the map then running hours for your buddies. If I wanted to play alone, i wouldn't go online.

I also IRL would KNOW who my friends were. Problem is in a game where there is 2 models available, you can't tell without name plates. So which is "real"?
 
Hmmm tried to make a post on things that I didn't like in Guild Wars 2, but I got an error saying I exceeded the character limit
 
Are they in cherno or Elektra? then they are going to murder you....and then die horribly due to badly balanced zombies. that being said i was rather "good" at DayZ. altho its less a Game and more an Asshole simulator. That's why i always SAVED ALL THE PEOPLES! bandits tend to not shoot the guy using a car to pull off a last min save of them from a Flesh eating horde.

that being said tho..... *the beans must flow*


Oh I killed everyone on site, and usually in the biggest asshole way I could. Why? Because people are suckers, and I had no interest in playing a match for more than 10 minutes, and when given so much power that quickly, it is easy to log in, be an ass, and log off.
 
Yes, I agree that many games are both too easy and too short...

Between the two links below, this summaries everything I feel about difficulty in games, far more eloquently than I can:



AND http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=336

I think it boils down to some fairly simple points:
-You should be able to minimize the annoying shit you have to do to try again once you fail
-Difficulty should follow an internal logic within the game itself
-You should be able to know why you failed be able to have an idea how to not repeat it

Of course, you can cut out a lot of player frustration by making games too easy - a path we see all-too-often - but that detracts from the enjoyment of the game just as much as really awful difficulty does.
 
I do agree that games are getting easier and easier. Even in MMOs it seems when you finally do encounter a tough fight, people complain until it gets nerfed to shit. Although Garden would probably argue that all of the games are too difficult. (Calling her out to try to force a response)
 
I think difficulty is a tough balance, especially in a MMO.

For a single player game, it's easy. You just make different difficulty levels and the players pick whAt they like.

In a persistent world, everyone has to be on the same difficulty level. So now you have to make it easy enough that people don't get frustrated and quit during their free trial, but interesting and challenging enough to keep the hardcore players that are going to be your main source of long term income.

So it's a dance between the two. WoW has lately started solving this by offering different end game difficulties that offer different levels of rewards. I think that's a tough line to walk because if there isn't enough separation in the notoriety and rewards, then most people aren't going to bother with the more difficult content.

What I'm hoping for out of WildStar is a lot of accessible content that most anyone can do, and a few epic challenges that the 1% can get a lot of satisfaction from by being among the very few to accomplish them. This may mean that some content is not accessible to me, either because I don't have the time to dedicate to it or I don't have a skilled enough group. I'm actually ok with that. The important thing is that every skill level has something to do that feels good and meaningful.
 
I think difficulty is a tough balance, especially in a MMO.

For a single player game, it's easy. You just make different difficulty levels and the players pick whAt they like.

In a persistent world, everyone has to be on the same difficulty level. So now you have to make it easy enough that people don't get frustrated and quit during their free trial, but interesting and challenging enough to keep the hardcore players that are going to be your main source of long term income.

So it's a dance between the two. WoW has lately started solving this by offering different end game difficulties that offer different levels of rewards. I think that's a tough line to walk because if there isn't enough separation in the notoriety and rewards, then most people aren't going to bother with the more difficult content.

What I'm hoping for out of WildStar is a lot of accessible content that most anyone can do, and a few epic challenges that the 1% can get a lot of satisfaction from by being among the very few to accomplish them. This may mean that some content is not accessible to me, either because I don't have the time to dedicate to it or I don't have a skilled enough group. I'm actually ok with that. The important thing is that every skill level has something to do that feels good and meaningful.


I think to me more importantly than any 1% content is the ability to sit in a chair, light a candle, and socialize.

The small bits of a game like that are what last when you have no dungeon to run, no content to finish, and nothing better to do.

These moments are what I will remember, that and the random encounters in world PvP.

I like going out to make items for my home as well, so thankfully that is there.
 
I think to me more importantly than any 1% content is the ability to sit in a chair, light a candle, and socialize.

The small bits of a game like that are what last when you have no dungeon to run, no content to finish, and nothing better to do.

These moments are what I will remember, that and the random encounters in world PvP.

I like going out to make items for my home as well, so thankfully that is there.


This was really beautifully written. And I could not agree more.
 
There is no character limit... wtf? Can you PM it to me?

It was a joke, there's alot that I ended up disliking about GW2 :p[DOUBLEPOST=1374578728,1374578025][/DOUBLEPOST]
WoW has lately started solving this by offering different end game difficulties that offer different levels of rewards. I think that's a tough line to walk because if there isn't enough separation in the notoriety and rewards, then most people aren't going to bother with the more difficult content.




Everyone should give this a watch and let me know what you think.
 
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