What kind of Athiest are you?

[Keleynal]

If we take the Bible as Perfect and Infallible the following facts are true.

God is complete and perfect. He has no needs. - God Has a Need to prove himself. Story of Job

God could have eradicated all of creation and started over, but He didn't. - THE FLOOD.

I could go on and on and on, the assertion that God is Perfect and that the Bible is infallible are Incompatible facts. Logic permits one fact or the other, Not both.

I'm sorry but if the bible is true then you cant just ignore the parts you don't like.

I don't ignore anything.

God wasn't proving Himself to Job; Job was proving himself to God.

The flood did not eradicate all of creation. One family was preserved, which also preserved the curse of sin. If God had intended to kill every living thing, He wouldn't have needed anything as elaborate as a flood, nor would he have sent warning or provided time and resources to build a boat.

A much more difficult paradox that assumes God's existence is this:
God is all powerful
God is good
Evil exists

Wrap your brain around that if you can.

You've got your own paradoxes to deal with, though. For example, if the universe wasn't created, wouldn't you have to believe that matter is eternal and can be eternally recycled between physical form and energy?

 

[Euchale]

You've got your own paradoxes to deal with, though. For example, if the universe wasn't created, wouldn't you have to believe that matter is eternal and can be eternally recycled between physical form and energy?

The difference is, that atheists state "we haven´t figured it out yet" and Christians state "we KNOW that it is like this because we have a book that tells us so".

Edith says: Just watched this video, thought it could fit in here. It´s not about the guy who made the video, it´s about the content.

 

[Baldoraxx]

<Christian however being in this community i have come to respect peoples decision on this issue. I would love to see more come back into Gods embrace because it is a wonderful place to be. But i do not condemn those who choose not to.

 

[Keleynal]

"If an all-powerful and perfectly good god exists, then evil does not.
There is evil in the world.
Therefore, an all-powerful and perfectly good god does not exist." - Epicurus

Yup, the paradox is nothing new, and there remains no easy answer to this day. Christianity isn't easy and it certainly isn't for wimps.

 

[Crake]

Keleynal, great points earlier, I like your take on things. Wish more people thought that way, we'd probably have less conflict.

You've got your own paradoxes to deal with, though. For example, if the universe wasn't created, wouldn't you have to believe that matter is eternal and can be eternally recycled between physical form and energy?

I have a very simple way of approaching this: We don't know yet. I do believe that we will eventually figure it all out, but I am perfectly content with admitting that I probably won't know in my lifetime. I think we are making strides in the right direction with discoveries involving black matter and the LHC (alhtough that thing scares the crap out of me at the same time). I think as humans we need to stop pretending we understand the universe, or even our own world, to a significant enough extent to make decisions regarding our existance, the existance of the world, and the existance of the universe.

Yes, pondering over the "how the hell did all of this stuff just appear" can be a real mindf*ck, but I will humble admit that it is probably something I would never understand, even if we did have an explanation for it all. People fear the unknown, and people fear the ignorance of man as a whole.

Sorry I want to respond to all of the things but I just woke up and it's a bit too heavy this early haha.

I have another paradox that really bothered me when I was young and in Catholic school growing up and hadn't yet fully commited to atheism: God "knows" that he is all knowing and that he is the highest form, but how does he know for sure? He may think he is all knowing and as far as he knows he is, but even if this all powerful being believes himself to be all knowing how can he know for sure?
Also: I think the concept of God is more of a mindf*ck then the concept of matter appearing in the universe. Why would God exist to begin with? It seems much more impossible then the idea of matter being created.

 

[Keleynal]

I have another paradox that really bothered me when I was young and in Catholic school growing up and hadn't yet fully commited to atheism: God "knows" that he is all knowing and that he is the highest form, but how does he know for sure? He may think he is all knowing and as far as he knows he is, but even if this all powerful being believes himself to be all knowing how can he know for sure?
Also: I think the concept of God is more of a mindf*ck then the concept of matter appearing in the universe. Why would God exist to begin with? It seems much more impossible then the idea of matter being created.

Those mysteries- what, if anything, lies beyond God seem to be completely unknowable to me. The reason it is unknowable is that the answers would reside outside of reality as we know it. I believe that reality as we know it is not the only state of being possible. After all, God existed before He created the empty space in which to put the universe. Apparently, that existence did not require physical space. There's no way for me to begin to understand how that works.

Fortunately, it also seems that anything that exists or doesn't exist outside of this reality has no bearing or meaning to me. Perhaps what we have here is the only reality. Perhaps there are infinitely more realities, with their own God or Gods. I do not know if the God I know's omnipotence and uniqueness extends that far. I tend to believe it does, since that is the simplest explanation, and the simplest explanation that jives with the facts as I understand them is usually the best way to go so I can get to sleep at night.

 

[Crake]

the simplest explanation that jives with the facts as I understand them is usually the best way to go so I can get to sleep at night.

Haha, I hear that. I love and hate paradoxes.

 

[Keleynal]

"God asks the satan for his opinion on Job. The Satan answers that Job is pious only because God has put a "wall around" him and "blessed" his favorite servant with prosperity, but if God were to stretch out his hand and strike everything that Job had, then he would surely curse God. God gives the Satan permission to test Job's righteousness" -Quoted chunk of text.

Job had nothing to prove. Job was a good Faithful person who worried for his son's. God was proving himself to Satan.

God used Satan to test Job. God's ability was never in question, the question was about the strength of Job's faith. Some argue that Christians only believe in God because of the benefits. Promises of blessings on earth, eternity in heaven, and so forth. What the Job experiment proved is that believers can remain steadfast in their faith even when things go wrong for absolutely no good reason. Throughout his trials, Job had every opportunity to turn his back on God, but he instead said "The LORD gives and the LORD takes away. Blessed be the name of the LORD."

 

[Fen]

I don't not take issue with people who say they believe things regarding god.

I take issue when they say they know unequivocally.

No one knows, or we'd all know.

I respect those for whom it is enough just to have faith and believe. I am unable to. I'm not sure if that makes me weak or strong, smart or stupid. I often think that it's depressing to have no faith. I would much rather believe that I will see my departed loved ones again someday. That no matter how crappy life can seem sometime, there is a prize at the end of the road. I simply do not believe that there is.

 

[Red Omen]

A word about agnosticism and atheism: They refer to two separate things. Agnosticism is derived from the Greek "gnosis" or knowledge, and the prefix "a-" means "without." Similarly, atheism is defined at its most basic form as the lack of belief in gods (again, "a-" means "without" belief in god). That means agnosticism is related to knowledge, and atheism is related to belief.

This means that it's possible, and quite common, for someone to be both an agnostic and an atheist. I am. The difference between an agnostic atheist and a gnostic atheist is that the former believes that it's impossible to determine whether there is a god, so believing in something unprovable is pointless. In contrast, a gnostic atheist claims to know, usually through a logical or philosophical proof, that it is impossible for a god to exist. There are also agnostic theists and gnostic theists - agnostics don't know whether there's a god, but choose to have faith in one anyway, and theists claim to know without a doubt that their god exists (as revealed through nature or a religious text). This is not to be confused with Gnostic Christianity, which is its own thing.

So if for any reason you lack belief in a god, you are an atheist. Just an agnostic atheist. The conclusions that you could derive from this premise are numerous; atheism is a component of several philosophies, from objectivism to communism or humanism to nihilism. There are also many different ways atheism can affect how you see the world and approach religion as a cultural institution, some of which are reflected in the poll.

And by the way - "e" before "i".

 

[Keleynal]

I don't not take issue with people who say they believe things regarding god.

I take issue when they say they know unequivocally.

No one knows, or we'd all know.

I respect those for whom it is enough just to have faith and believe. I am unable to. I'm not sure if that makes me weak or strong, smart or stupid. I often think that it's depressing to have no faith. I would much rather believe that I will see my departed loved ones again someday. That no matter how crappy life can seem sometime, there is a prize at the end of the road. I simply do not believe that there is.

I totally agree.

I can say I believe 100% in the Bible, because that is a heart issue and my heart is settled. However I cannot say I know 100% for sure that all or anything I believe is true because the nature of knowledge is that the possibility of being wrong, however remote, always exists.

The bridge between knowledge and belief is faith. It is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things unseen.

 

[dainjre]

 

[Keleynal]

Scott Adams, the guy who wrote Dilbert, also wrote a fun thought experiment called God's Debris. It's a neat read if you get the chance.

 

[Keleynal]

Interesting. So is there anything that humanity can now know with 100% certainty, or do we still need more time? If so, how much more time do we need? If it takes an infinite amount of time to know something, it's the same as it never being fully known.

Also,

Also nothing is unknowable, they only thing that stands between us and knowing everything is Time. This is the power of God. All the secrets of this universe and any other are there for us to find. we just need to work hard enough to find them. There is nothing that humanity can't accomplish with the strength of God. That is God's strength as God. Giving credit to something else just cheapens us all.

Your God appears to be science and humanity. Pretty dogmatically, in fact. As for me, I don't put that much faith into science and humanity.

 

[Keleynal]

Everything has a Finite amount of time to be known. Collectively those can add up to an Infinite amount of time. There is no singular thing that has an Infinite amount of information in it. The universe is a Trillion piece puzzle in a desert made of puzzle piece's. It only looks unknowable.

I'm with you so far.

Has that been proven out in a single data point? Can you point to one fact that has been shown to be 100% for certain?

 

[Euchale]

I really hate to be the person to point this out but where is the electron located?

 

[Keleynal]

I really hate to be the person to point this out but where is the electron located?

And how fast is it moving?

I suggest starting with something easier. Can you prove that you're awake?

 

[Euchale]

And how fast is it moving?

In what media? How is it connected to other atoms? Please be more specific!

The point is, in science there is nothing that can be stated as fundamentally irrefutable right. If somebody comes up with a better explanation that can be proven the old one will be replaced.
Also there has been so many Models of atoms. Why? Because we haven´t figured it out entirely yet.

But this is why I think religion is wrong. Because you state that it is irrefutable to say that there is a god.

 

[Keleynal]

In what media? How is it connected to other atoms? Please be more specific!

The point is, in science there is nothing that can be stated as fundamentally irrefutable right. If somebody comes up with a better explanation that can be proven the old one will be replaced.
Also there has been so many Models of atoms. Why? Because we haven´t figured it out entirelyyet.

And we can insist that we will eventually get it "right," but since that hasn't happened yet, this is a statement of faith in human ability and sceince, not a statement of fact. It is entirely possible that the zombie apocalypse comes before research is complete.

 

[Euchale]

Zombies don't work without grey goo or magic. If magic is involved we missed some thing important somewhere and we would need to start over.

The bible is true because it is a written book. Harry Potter is also a written book. So magic must be true!