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Looking at other women. Pig or Double Standard?

The difference is actually saying, "Oh hey you have really nice outfit on!" Rather than just staring at her like she's a delicious double fudge sundae on a hot day.
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Kali you still don't know what I'm saying. You are assuming I was staring at this woman with my eyes glazed over. Proving that you, too, apparently have a one track mind. Not point in arguing this further as we both have one track minds. Win-Win for all. /end conversation.
 
Ok people keep the personal jabs to a minimum please. I don't mind a debate but try to keep the jabs to at least 1 or two minimum :)

That being said... Kali wtf are you going on about lol. Your points here are as if someone cheated on you not as if he was looking at another girl. In my opinion if he wants to look at other girls and his g/f is not OK with it, maybe the open communication needs to be worked on in the relationship not in the personalities. You mentioned it somewhere in between the "kill you" and "pig" comments so it was a bit diluted.

We can only change who we are to a certain extent for those we love, the rest is hard coded. It is finding someone who is hard coded with us that makes it work, not trying to change one another.

As for double standards, to say they don't exist is naive. A guy wants to be sexually harassed, a girl doesn't. But when a girl goes public and pushes for that kind of attention I.E. Video Game girls who know nothing about video games but use the video game world to further their careers it is using their power as women to advance, no one really acknowledges the shift.

Harassment is never harassment if the other person harassing is hot, plain and simple haha.

Clothes, like I said earlier are also strange to me... Girls will wear things that accent their bodies but then say they wore it for themselves.. these are YOUR CLOTHES, of course you wore them for yourself, but if it makes you ass pop or boobies glisten I am going to look. That is what clothes are fashion "statements". Meant to be looked at.

It is when you get someone who wears the tight dress and then acts like they don;t know why people who look at their curves that confuses me. REALLY?
 
I agree with Tristan on that one. And i agree with Kali that all men, at least to a certain extent, are pigs.

Knowing that, a woman should be mindful of what she wears and when and not be surprised if she generates some unwanted attention in addition to the wanted attention. I don't think we need to excuse the men for being pigs or not hold them accountable, but it's hard to blame a pig for devouring a trough full of food when it's poured out right in front of them.

I have a hard time going to public pools for that reason. To many girls, especially young girls, run around in swimsuits that cause bad thoughts to run through my mind. I don't blame the girls or demand that they cover up, but it is a little sad that their choices have created an environment that I find hostile and dangerous to my health. Some women are oblivious to this effect and others glory in it. I would submit that women who knowingly entrap men are just as much pigs themselves.
 
tr1age said:
Ok people keep the personal jabs to a minimum please. I don't mind a debate but try to keep the jabs to at least 1 or two minimum :)

That being said... Kali wtf are you going on about lol. Your points here are as if someone cheated on you not as if he was looking at another girl. In my opinion if he wants to look at other girls and his g/f is not OK with it, maybe the open communication needs to be worked on in the relationship not in the personalities. You mentioned it somewhere in between the "kill you" and "pig" comments so it was a bit diluted.

We can only change who we are to a certain extent for those we love, the rest is hard coded. It is finding someone who is hard coded with us that makes it work, not trying to change one another.

As for double standards, to say they don't exist is naive. A guy wants to be sexually harassed, a girl doesn't. But when a girl goes public and pushes for that kind of attention I.E. Video Game girls who know nothing about video games but use the video game world to further their careers it is using their power as women to advance, no one really acknowledges the shift.

Harassment is never harassment if the other person harassing is hot, plain and simple haha.

Clothes, like I said earlier are also strange to me... Girls will wear things that accent their bodies but then say they wore it for themselves.. these are YOUR CLOTHES, of course you wore them for yourself, but if it makes you ass pop or boobies glisten I am going to look. That is what clothes are fashion "statements". Meant to be looked at.

It is when you get someone who wears the tight dress and then acts like they don;t know why people who look at their curves that confuses me. REALLY?
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JAB JAB JAB LEFT HOOK UPPERRRRR CUUUUUTTTTTTTTTTT

Give a girl another way to move up the ladder and you won't see that anymore. Equal wages and fair job opportunities? Women are still paid less than men overall. EVERYWHERE. Not to mention the number of women being able to HAVE THE CHANCE at getting a high paying job, isn't even close to where guys are. High ranking officials? MAJORITY ARE MEN. And don't tell me because women aren't interested in that. That's just not true. This is for a whole other topic tho, so I'll just stop here.

"Harassment is always harassment." FTFY ^^ Otherwise you're on the brink of "Rape is never rape if the other person raping is hot." Like really? That's just bad news bears Tristan. :<

Not even joking now. Borderline rape culture thinking. Point is no matter what we wear, you don't have the right to use that as a justification of what you're doing.

If you're looking. It is because you wanted to. Not because of what she is wearing. Is she wearing see through fishnet shirt? Oh you're looking? That's because you wanted to. Maybe she did wear it to be different and "eye catching" but the bottom line is; you're looking because you want to.
 
It's true!
Kali said:
If you're looking. It is because you wanted to. Not because of what she is wearing. Is she wearing see through fishnet shirt? Oh you're looking? That's because you wanted to. Maybe she did wear it to be different and "eye catching" but the bottom line is; you're looking because you want to.
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It's true! Women are just victims that have no control or say whatsoever in how men perceive them. It's foolish for any woman to think that she could dress professionally and be respected as a human being, regardless of boobs. It's up to men to define the poor women that remain completely oblivious to everything around them. That's why we need to open doors for them, let them go first all the time, and pay for all their food. /extract tongue from cheek

A woman's (or man's for that matter) clothing choices and way they present themselves does matter and it's the responsibilty of the wearer of the clothes, not the observer, to communicate a clear message. If the message you SAY you are sending is being misinterpreted by 9 of 10 guys because you are wearing a bikini to a ski slope (just because you like the color and want a tan, of course), then maybe, just maybe, the problem is with the you, and not 90% of the male population.
 
Well this got out of hand quick.

Honestly I think it all comes down to being secure in your relationship. If there isn't the same level of comfort/security from both people that's where the problem comes in.

I personally don't have any issue with my husband looking at or commenting on another chick because at the end of the day I know he's going home with me. But then maybe we're just really comfortable in our relationship ^^;

/twocents


Disclaimer: I totally didn't read all the rage btw. I skimmed it. Because it was making my head hurt. <3 tho.
 
Kali said:
JAB JAB JAB LEFT HOOK UPPERRRRR CUUUUUTTTTTTTTTTT

Give a girl another way to move up the ladder and you won't see that anymore. Equal wages and fair job opportunities? Women are still paid less than men overall. EVERYWHERE. Not to mention the number of women being able to HAVE THE CHANCE at getting a high paying job, isn't even close to where guys are. High ranking officials? MAJORITY ARE MEN. And don't tell me because women aren't interested in that. That's just not true. This is for a whole other topic tho, so I'll just stop here.

"Harassment is always harassment." FTFY ^^ Otherwise you're on the brink of "KITTEN is never KITTEN if the other person FLUFFY KITTENS is hot." Like really? That's just bad news bears Tristan. :<

Not even joking now. Borderline KITTEN culture thinking. Point is no matter what we wear, you don't have the right to use that as a justification of what you're doing.

If you're looking. It is because you wanted to. Not because of what she is wearing. Is she wearing see through fishnet shirt? Oh you're looking? That's because you wanted to. Maybe she did wear it to be different and "eye catching" but the bottom line is; you're looking because you want to.
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We look because we want to of course. I am not saying you should harass people because of it nor does it justify the means.

I also think the reason Hillary Clinton failed to gain office is because she cried. No one wants emotions getting in the way of decisions. (pushes buttons)

Your description is insulting btw, the Kitten part. You are trying to compare apples to oranges. If someone who can do that to another person starts by oogling a hot dress, our society has a bigger problem than harassment and equal rights.

Some of the most successful women are the ones who are passionate not naked. Society is warming to it but obviously it still has a way to go. But ya know what society has also babied everyone into a corner. Back when complimenting appearance was nice, now it is harassment.

We have babied our society into a corner where advancement for women and men in any work environment together is awkward. We naturally want to fuck one another. That is our INSTINCT. So if you add things like clothing to enhance that sensual arousment OF COURSE people are going to look. It is human nature.

We have taught ourselves self control. That is where I back the OP on his point of the boobs being the secondary thought of looking at the girl. Not because he is "comparing them to his girlfriends smaller ones" or whatever jab you took. Once again it is an assumption you are making on your own beliefs not the topic he was chatting about, which ACTUALLY contrary to everything being said here actually bolsters his point. You are reacting with a knee jerk reaction to something that might actually have a different outlook than black and white.

He on the other hand needs to just admit YES he saw the boobs, duh he saw them, we all see them. I am not even a boob guy and I see them. FFS just own up to it :)

Now both of you go to time out and make out.
 
Keleynal said:
It's true!


It's true! Women are just victims that have no control or say whatsoever in how men perceive them. It's foolish for any woman to think that she could dress professionally and be respected as a human being, regardless of boobs. It's up to men to define the poor women that remain completely oblivious to everything around them. That's why we need to open doors for them, let them go first all the time, and pay for all their food. /extract tongue from cheek

A woman's (or man's for that matter) clothing choices and way they present themselves does matter and it's the responsibilty of the wearer of the clothes, not the observer, to communicate a clear message. If the message you SAY you are sending is being misinterpreted by 9 of 10 guys because you are wearing a bikini to a ski slope (just because you like the color and want a tan, of course), then maybe, just maybe, the problem is with the you, and not 90% of the male population.
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No. It is your kind of thinking makes it OKAY for a girl to be raped for what she is wearing because it is OKAY to justify it by saying it was her fault. WRONG. COMPLETELY AND HORRIBLY WRONG.
 
Ruxandra said:
Well this got out of hand quick.

Honestly I think it all comes down to being secure in your relationship. If there isn't the same level of comfort/security from both people that's where the problem comes in.

I personally don't have any issue with my husband looking at or commenting on another chick because at the end of the day I know he's going home with me. But then maybe we're just really comfortable in our relationship ^^;

/twocents


Disclaimer: I totally didn't read all the rage btw. I skimmed it. Because it was making my head hurt. <3 tho.
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Thanks, Rux. That was a breast of fresh ass.
 
Keleynal said:
I have a hard time going to public pools for that reason. To many girls, especially young girls, run around in swimsuits that cause bad thoughts to run through my mind. I don't blame the girls or demand that they cover up, but it is a little sad that their choices have created an environment that I find hostile and dangerous to my health. Some women are oblivious to this effect and others glory in it. I would submit that women who knowingly entrap men are just as much pigs themselves.
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This is a very strange statement here... Bathing suits at a pool make you uncomfortable? This is an american thing. Go to Europe(broad I know, switzerland zurich is where I base most my "Europe" statements from), naked naked naked. And no one thinks twice. Do they look? hell yes. Do they care, hell no. Do they have the same structure american has, no, but do they have a much easier going attitude about social interaction? Hell yes.

Is it right? Who the fuck knows and who cares, because it works. They can more openly talk about STDS and prevent infections because sex ins't some weird stigma or Jersey Shore trophy.

Not sure how a bathing suit at a pool on a younger girl mind you is hostile and dangerous to ones health......
 
Kali said:
No. It is your kind of thinking makes it OKAY for a girl to be KITTENS for what she is wearing because it is OKAY to justify it by saying it was her fault. WRONG. COMPLETELY AND HORRIBLY WRONG.
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If we can't agree that there's at least SOME shared responsibility, then I think we're at an impasse.
 
tr1age said:
We look because we want to of course. I am not saying you should harass people because of it nor does it justify the means.

I also think the reason Hillary Clinton failed to gain office is because she cried. No one wants emotions getting in the way of decisions. (pushes buttons)

Your description is insulting btw, the Kitten part. You are trying to compare apples to oranges. If someone who can do that to another person starts by oogling a hot dress, our society has a bigger problem than harassment and equal rights.

Some of the most successful women are the ones who are passionate not naked. Society is warming to it but obviously it still has a way to go. But ya know what society has also babied everyone into a corner. Back when complimenting appearance was nice, now it is harassment.

We have babied our society into a corner where advancement for women and men in any work environment together is awkward. We naturally want to fuck one another. That is our INSTINCT. So if you add things like clothing to enhance that sensual arousment OF COURSE people are going to look. It is human nature.

We have taught ourselves self control. That is where I back the OP on his point of the boobs being the secondary thought of looking at the girl. Not because he is "comparing them to his girlfriends smaller ones" or whatever jab you took. Once again it is an assumption you are making on your own beliefs not the topic he was chatting about, which ACTUALLY contrary to everything being said here actually bolsters his point. You are reacting with a knee jerk reaction to something that might actually have a different outlook than black and white.

He on the other hand needs to just admit YES he saw the boobs, duh he saw them, we all see them. I am not even a boob guy and I see them. FFS just own up to it :)

Now both of you go to time out and knife fight
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"Your description is insulting btw, the Kitten part. You are trying to compare apples to oranges. If someone who can do that to another person starts by oogling a hot dress, our society has a bigger problem than harassment and equal rights."

It is the truth. And our society definitely has a bigger problem called idiots. That is where all of the defense for rape comes from in the first place. "ITS BECAUSE SHE WAS WEARING X Y Z." So no. There are no fruits in this equation. Maybe you should try East Village?
 
[ADMIN ADDITION: BTW FOR THOSE JOINING THIS CONVERSATION NOW, UNDERSTAND SOME OF THE COMMENTS ARE HEATED. THIS IS A SAFE PLACE TO DISCUSS SO SLIGHT MODERATION HAS BEEN DEPLOYED TO KEEP DOWN THE PERSONAL JABS AND KEEP IT MORE AS A DEBATE. BUT WITH ALL DEBATES IT GETS PERSONAL TO A CERTAIN EXTENT. PLEASE KEEP THIS IN MIND PRIOR TO POSTING AND HANDLE YO' SHIT.]
 
I'm a little hungover today, so I may not make complete sense.

I think Kali is definitely right about communication being KEY. For example (storytime kiddos!).. I have major self esteem issues among a mountain of other baggage. My boyfriend knows this, and I made it clear to him what he was getting into BEFORE we started dating (we were friends for over a year before we dated).

If he makes a comment about another woman, ESPECIALLY a "normal" person walking by, I have a little freakout. Sometimes I get a little bitchy, sometimes I get a little teary- because that person seems "attainable." It's not a celebrity that he will never meet, it's someone he could bump into while getting coffee and strike up a conversation with. I trust him NOT to stray, but in my mind, I still have that voice saying "She's better than youuuuu~ He'll leave you for someone else~." He's aware that this is how I think, so he doesn't usually make comments or ogle (I think he mostly doesn't do this because he's not at a woman-buffet, he's out with his girlfriend- where he wants to be. That's just how he is).

Sometimes I talk with him about my exes, or mention something an ex and I did together, and it's usually not me just ranting about how terrible they were. My exes were a major part of my life, and a lot of my life experiences were shared with people I used to date. He generally seems ok with this. When he talks about his ex, I listen and keep my cool, but as soon as he mentions how awesome she is at something, or how much praise she got for something, I start to lose it. Generally he doesn't mention her a lot or just watches what he says because of how I feel. To anyone that isn't my boyfriend and I, this is a HUGE double standard, and I recognize this. In fact, I don't even really disagree. But the thing is, if talking about my exes bothered him, I'd stop doing it. I'm not a asswaffle. I actually pay attention to other people's feelings. I do feel bad about how one-sided things seem, and I've tried all along to get better. My boyfriend still hangs out with his ex sometimes and I grit my teeth and say I'm ok with it- because I trust him, even though my jerk-ass brain keeps telling me that it's a bad idea.

You have to know your significant other and how they will react to things (externally AND internally). Everyone is different. Be considerate of their feelings.. and you know, if you really want the relationship with them to work, you won't even see it as a chore or resent them for it. If you love them, you want them to be happy, and if that means shutting up about certain things or averting your eyes when someone attractive goes by or is on tv, then you'll do it wholeheartedly.

As a side note- the celebrity thing doesn't bother me as much. I have one fairly strong celebrity crush and a few minor ones.. I've asked my BF several times what celebrity he finds attractive, and he never can think of one. He thinks they're all too fake and bitchy, haha. If he had actually told me a celebrity he found attractive, it wouldn't upset me at all. Obviously I'd compare myself to her, but it's almost like that person isn't even real. They live in a different world. I can be jealous of them, but I'm not even on their plane of existence. It's pointless to care that much.
 
Kali said:
"Your description is insulting btw, the Kitten part. You are trying to compare apples to oranges. If someone who can do that to another person starts by oogling a hot dress, our society has a bigger problem than harassment and equal rights."

It is the truth. And our society definitely has a bigger problem called idiots. That is where all of the defense for KITTEN comes from in the first place. "ITS BECAUSE SHE WAS WEARING X Y Z." So no. There are no fruits in this equation. Maybe you should try East Village?
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So what you are saying is people get raped because they wear clothes and society accepts that? Is it the same in your mind then how a black man in a hooded sweatshirt can get shot by law enforcement? Idiots are ingrained into society be it a passerby or a cop. Does this define society? I would hope not. We choose many things in our lives here and with the way society is there are norms and things that are not normal. If you go clubbing in a skin tight outfit and get hit on, why does this piss you off? If you went to the SAME club in sweats and a hoodie, you would get a different reaction. Social interaction is a thing and fashion does determine interaction.. Men too. Men do not go to interviews for a new job in sweats we go in a suit. It is perception of being an "adult" or knowing how to partake int eh rules of engagement. We don't go to college all the time to get a diploma necessarily, we go so that Joe Shmoe can look at our resume and say, oh this fucker went through the same shit I did.
 
Zevrix said:
I'm a little hungover today, so I may not make complete sense.

I think Kali is definitely right about communication being KEY. For example (storytime kiddos!).. I have major self esteem issues among a mountain of other baggage. My boyfriend knows this, and I made it clear to him what he was getting into BEFORE we started dating (we were friends for over a year before we dated).

If he makes a comment about another woman, ESPECIALLY a "normal" person walking by, I have a little freakout. Sometimes I get a little bitchy, sometimes I get a little teary- because that person seems "attainable." It's not a celebrity that he will never meet, it's someone he could bump into while getting coffee and strike up a conversation with. I trust him NOT to stray, but in my mind, I still have that voice saying "She's better than youuuuu~ He'll leave you for someone else~." He's aware that this is how I think, so he doesn't usually make comments or ogle (I think he mostly doesn't do this because he's not at a woman-buffet, he's out with his girlfriend- where he wants to be. That's just how he is).

Sometimes I talk with him about my exes, or mention something an ex and I did together, and it's usually not me just ranting about how terrible they were. My exes were a major part of my life, and a lot of my life experiences were shared with people I used to date. He generally seems ok with this. When he talks about his ex, I listen and keep my cool, but as soon as he mentions how awesome she is at something, or how much praise she got for something, I start to lose it. Generally he doesn't mention her a lot or just watches what he says because of how I feel. To anyone that isn't my boyfriend and I, this is a HUGE double standard, and I recognize this. In fact, I don't even really disagree. But the thing is, if talking about my exes bothered him, I'd stop doing it. I'm not a asswaffle. I actually pay attention to other people's feelings. I do feel bad about how one-sided things seem, and I've tried all along to get better. My boyfriend still hangs out with his ex sometimes and I grit my teeth and say I'm ok with it- because I trust him, even though my jerk-ass brain keeps telling me that it's a bad idea.

You have to know your significant other and how they will react to things (externally AND internally). Everyone is different. Be considerate of their feelings.. and you know, if you really want the relationship with them to work, you won't even see it as a chore or resent them for it. If you love them, you want them to be happy, and if that means shutting up about certain things or averting your eyes when someone attractive goes by or is on tv, then you'll do it wholeheartedly.

As a side note- the celebrity thing doesn't bother me as much. I have one fairly strong celebrity crush and a few minor ones.. I've asked my BF several times what celebrity he finds attractive, and he never can think of one. He thinks they're all too fake and bitchy, haha. If he had actually told me a celebrity he found attractive, it wouldn't upset me at all. Obviously I'd compare myself to her, but it's almost like that person isn't even real. They live in a different world. I can be jealous of them, but I'm not even on their plane of existence. It's pointless to care that much.
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I'm glad you found a boyfriend who is such a wonderful human being! <3
 
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