The 'Gay'mer

[Keleynal]

Why am I putting this here? If we censor certain words, than other words would also need to be censored. And this would run on in a cycle. I agree that everybody personally should not use the words because the amount of how many time we use them turns them into something meaningless for people who know you well, but not for people who don´t know you. But everybody should have the right to decide whether they want to use it or not.

The right or ability to do something doesn't mean that it is advisable or without consequence. I have the right to call you every slur I want. You then have the right to refuse to cooperate with me. It's in everyone's best interest for people to use their rights and abilities wisely. If people were capable of making good decisions about when and how to use their abilities, we wouldn't need laws. Unfortunately, that's not the world we live in, so any organization has to have standards of some sort just to have a basic level of cooperation.

I'm with you that censorship is not a good thing in general, but we need to hold people accountable for the good of the organization.

 

[Fen]

I'm with you that censorship is not a good thing in general, but we need to hold people accountable for the good of the organization.

I can't seem to avoid beating the dead horse here, but what my point is and has been is that holding people accountable in a group as small and close as this one can be dependent on individual situations and overall impressions of a person rather than a checklist of things you can and cannot say. Discussing the gaming culture as a whole and what is good for TAB are very different things. My stance is not that people should just say whatever the fuck they want whenever they want. It's that IF you are a raging homophobic racist asshole, your true colors will show regardless of the words that come out of your mouth and you will not be welcome here. Conversely, if you are a kind and nice person who loses their shit on occasion and behaves badly, we can love you anyway and forgive your failings.

 

[tr1age]

It isn't about satire or comedy. The use of them in the gaming culture is to "Troll" or otherwise be a dick. This stems from the original usage of these words meaning derogatory. Which, you could also say: Back in WWII the Germans thought being a Nazi was good, now being called a Nazi as a German is a touchy subject and people tend to steer away from it. That is what we need to try to do steer away from it.

Obviously they are not even words to mean homosexual anymore they are just ingrained into everyone's head as OK. I prefer a nice solid word like FUCK, it has more bite. That is why I don't understand why people abbreviate What the Fuck. Say it out loud!

As for having to censor other words too... I disagree. We can choose certain key words here for the community because they are the hot button ones for the gaming culture, members of this site, and what we consider to be integral to a healthy community. That doesn't make it any more or less enjoyable. Fen I see you over there applauding =) , just realize because it didn't work out in your scenario doesn't mean we all have to follow suit, will have the same outcome, or there is a "Where I am now you soon with be" lesson to be learned. It is about what we believe in.

If ANYONE on this site feels the need to call someone a fag or say how they just r_ped them, this is NOT the place for them and we are more than happy to show them the door. Why? Because it isn't needed. If you cannot participate in games with your friends without bashing them with derogatory remarks that don't even hold the proper definitions... No reason at all for it.

The ONLY thing this does is to show people, "Hey we would prefer you keep the high profile trash talk to a minimum. Treat each other with respect. And have FUN."

Now obviously some people may find those words appealing. Those people we don't want here.

Now when American population or the whole of humanity understands moderation perhaps we can re-look at such an idea as self moderation for those key words without needing a section that explains our Zero Tolerance Policy, but until then, I believe we have found a VERY happy medium in which people can rant, express opinions, engage in debate(LIKE THIS THREAD), Lurk with the rating system ( Vesi ), and still be heard, express themselves, and do it in a way where they are comfortable.

People are quick to think one censored word will expand and grow into thousands. Why? Because look around us, idiotic governments and regulations made to stop the lowest common denominator from "doing bad", slaps on wrists, kids in jail, stupid shit. Half a governing system that calls in their jobs and are not held accountable for being STRAIGHT OUT FUCKING DUMB.



We are doing one sliver of ANY of that with the removal of ONE word and the request that the other derogatory words not be used for negative reasons. But also remember these words are NOT only being used by the lowest common denominator. They are rampant in the gaming community(and sure others as well). And AltTabMe as a community does not with to be a part of that, but we also don't wish to be part of the "blanket statement" oh well they censored A WORD, so now I can't talk about anything.

Even when someone says a word or two in the heat of the moment, we don't go: DOOR you NOW. It is ingrained in this culture. We get that so we explain to them what is already established for the community and we move on. How they take that is completely and entirely up to them.

That is the amazing thing about what we allow here: Choice. You choose if you are happy with what is set up in-front of you. If not, you have choices! If you do you still have choices! And if you are on the fence you can debate and scream and shout without any worry of repercussions, as long as you do it in a sensible fashion and don't go on a rampage.

That my dear Euchale is what AltTabMe stands for, what I stand for, what the Mods/Officers ( Gyoin, Zakis, Jia, ThatOneGuy ) stand for. That is what we are built on and as we grow, need to explain it much more clearly, hence "rules" pages. Although Guidelines are way better off and what we call them, because they are a loose example of how we hope you will play in the sandbox. We do hope you end up spilling sand, making glass, and other things outside of the box. We didn't take away your shovels, we just told you that if you need to piss, don't do it in the pool. While it may feel good, it is at the expense of others.

 

[TIG]

I can't seem to avoid beating the dead horse here, but what my point is and has been is that holding people accountable in a group as small and close as this one can be dependent on individual situations and overall impressions of a person rather than a checklist of things you can and cannot say. Discussing the gaming culture as a whole and what is good for TAB are very different things. My stance is not that people should just say whatever the fuck they want whenever they want. It's that IF you are a raging homophobic racist asshole, your true colors will show regardless of the words that come out of your mouth and you will not be welcome here. Conversely, if you are a kind and nice person who loses their shit on occasion and behaves badly, we can love you anyway and forgive your failings.

I personally think that is the exact standard we have held ourselves to here.

I also think the OP of this post is a kind of mission to civilize and help people think about the issue so they can decide for themselves how to act in the wider world.

 

[Vesi]

I rated like 4 posts in this thread and haven't gone back since, I'm a serious lurker.

 

[tr1age]

I'm with you that censorship is not a good thing in general, but we need to hold people accountable for the good of the organization.

And I will agree that this sentence just sounds wrong, not because it is wrong, but because of the way it is phrased.

Such as if I wrote, I disagree with the way this sentence is structured as opposed to I agree that it is not structured properly.

The knee jerk reaction to one is greater than the other.

That being said, we do need to hold people accountable. Rage on if you had a bad day, but do it all the time, and find some other outlet to take out your shit on.

Oh surprised? Well that is why we have a guideline section. So people don't rage after raging about raging. It shows them and the entire community WHY.

 

[ToxicAsF]

Even when someone says a word or two in the heat of the moment, we don't go: DOOR you NOW. It is ingrained in this culture. We get that so we explain to them what is already established for the community and we move on. How they take that is completely and entirely up to them.

I want to re-iterate this point right here. We definitely know it's a habit for a lot of people and that it's normalized in many ways. We're more asking to respect the rules we have in place because we feel the rules will make a better environment for people in the long run. Because that's our primary objective, have an enjoyable, relaxing place for people to hang out and lay games.

We label it as Zero Tolerance, because we won't allow it. But people do mess up, and we're understanding of that as well. I've heard it recently on a knee-jerk reaction on mumble lately, and my first response has, and always will be "easy on that word, try not to use it". Not something along the lines of "OMG YOU TERRIBLE PERSON GTFO".

We enforce it to the best of our ability because we believe it will create a better place for people. It's that simple.

 

[Fen]

There is a reference in the most recent Zero Tolerance post to immediate expulsion, though I guess that refers to the racist bits of the rules.

Then again it also says this: There is only one word banned and that is the word for sexual assault and the derogatory term for homosexual.

So I'm pretty sure that Tristan is just trying to make my head explode.

 

[ToxicAsF]

There is a reference in the most recent Zero Tolerance post to immediate expulsion, though I guess that refers to the racist bits of the rules.

Then again it also says this: There is only one word banned and that is the word for sexual assault and the derogatory term for homosexual.

So I'm pretty sure that Tristan is just trying to make my head explode.

lol. We've dissected and re-arranged the rules a bunch of times to make them more specific / easier to read / less confusion / etc. Sometimes we are counter-intuitive and thought process break or editing errors occur lol. Human Error, don't mind us

 

[tr1age]

There is a reference in the most recent Zero Tolerance post to immediate expulsion, though I guess that refers to the racist bits of the rules.

Then again it also says this: There is only one word banned and that is the word for sexual assault and the derogatory term for homosexual.

So I'm pretty sure that Tristan is just trying to make my head explode.

My head just sploded haha.

Fixing.

 

[Fen]

I thought maybe you had invented a new naughty word that I hadn't yet heard. I pride myself on knowing all the naughty words.

 

[tr1age]

Ha. Anywho yeah the no strikes policy is for racism and anyone who approaches the site as a complete bigoted tool, to break it down simply haha.

Which intrigues me that you deducted it was for the "racist bit of the rules" and seem to accept that hands down. Shouldn't we allow people to be racist when they lose their tempers? Don't want to censor

Seeeeee blanket statements can be used both ways!

My last post pretty much goes into that all in detail though so I will let that be the reference.

 

[Crake]

There is a reference in the most recent Zero Tolerance post to immediate expulsion, though I guess that refers to the racist bits of the rules.

Then again it also says this: There is only one word banned and that is the word for sexual assault and the derogatory term for homosexual.

So I'm pretty sure that Tristan is just trying to make my head explode.

Haha I noticed that too.. tilted my head a bit on that one.

 

[ToxicAsF]

Haha I noticed that too.. tilted my head a bit on that one.

Just like when we correct grammar, by all means point out our errors in things like this. We do get around to fixing them sooner rather than later

 

[tr1age]

Haha I noticed that too.. tilted my head a bit on that one.

DAMMIT TELL US! =P

 

[Crake]

DAMMIT TELL US! =P

Was gonna but I forgot..

 

[Baldoraxx]

Wow should have stayed with this thread from the beginning. Reading all of that in one go = brain hurting. Just putting in my 2 cents here. I used to be a said "gay"mer and curse and stuff and use other insults behind a screen. Most of you have found out that i am pretty blunt and am not afraid to say somethings. This is also how i am IRL, i do not sugar-coat things and will tell you if you are being a dumbass, etc. etc.

While being with this community it has changed the way i think to a point. I don't think that i get censored, if i say something that offends someone then i am told and i will apologize.

I still keep my values and points of view (I am republican, i believe in God, and a few other things i will leave out)

One of the main reasons i never liked CoD and never had a microphone was because of this. Because people couldn't keep their mouth shut.

(This part might get a little of topic so in advanced i am sorry) I believe if we want to "fix" this problem we need to start with the source of the problem. Part of this source IMO is the parents. There are age ratings on games and tv programs for a reason. I do not think a 7 year old should be playing a "M" rated game or a 16 year old should be watching "The Walking Dead" or something along those lines. Until we are in our 20's we are still learning and using what we see and hear to use in our daily life.
Example: If a child grows up hearing F this and F that then the child will think it is okay for them to use it in normal life.
Most M rated games and R rated movies have a lot of cursing in it, nudity and other things meant for mature audiences.

Sorry for the very mixed and matched post. I can never keep a single train of thought and put it on paper

 

[Euchale]

That my dear Euchale is what AltTabMe stands for, what I stand for, what the Mods/Officers ( Gyoin, Zakis, Jia, ThatOneGuy ) stand for. That is what we are built on and as we grow, need to explain it much more clearly, hence "rules" pages. Although Guidelines are way better off and what we call them, because they are a loose example of how we hope you will play in the sandbox. We do hope you end up spilling sand, making glass, and other things outside of the box. We didn't take away your shovels, we just told you that if you need to piss, don't do it in the pool. While it may feel good, it is at the expense of others.

Just to clarify it, since you adressed me, I wasn´t talking about the people of AltTabMe (which also includes me), as far as I have experienced it, they are all intelligent, tolerant, thoughtful, fun people. I will follow the rules because I understand why they are in place, and for me this is easy because I don´t use these words anyway. It is not like you have very strict rule enforcement, you will tell people to stop and think about what they are writing/saying instead of directly banning them.
It is fine to censor words within small communities. But censoring in general is wrong. Every word that is censored is a lost opportunity for discussion. Also a banned word does not change somebody who wants to be hateful about something. He will find other words to use.

 

[Fen]

Ha. Anywho yeah the no strikes policy is for racism and anyone who approaches the site as a complete bigoted tool, to break it down simply haha.

Which intrigues me that you deducted it was for the "racist bit of the rules" and seem to accept that hands down. Shouldn't we allow people to be racist when they lose their tempers? Don't want to censor

Seeeeee blanket statements can be used both ways!

My last post pretty much goes into that all in detail though so I will let that be the reference.

I just saw that you edited this. Don't take my mention of it as approval or acceptance. I mean, clearly I accept your rules because I'm still here. I can almost guarantee that aside from the [sexual asaault] word, I would never have uttered any of those words in my entire time here with or without the rules. My opinion of them hasn't changed, however, nor has my assertion that a strong and tolerant community can be run without them. So no, I don't think there is a need to censor anything as a flat rule whether it be racist or homophobic or whatever. You are the one who differentiates in your rules between racist remarks and homophobic/sexual assault ones, not me. But your comment "Shouldn't we allow people to be racist when they lose their tempers? Don't want to censor " is a little bit bitchy, I think. Please don't mistake me for someone who changes their mind on a whim or who states an opinion without truly thinking it through. I may be guilty of being hypocritical on some matters at times in my life, but I don't believe this is one of them.

 

[Keleynal]

[user]Fen[/user] describes a nice utopia where everyone treats each other civilly, and when someone steps too far outside of that, they are easily removed while still keeping the community "strong and tolerant." In practicality, it rarely or ever works that way. It assumes a level of maturity that just doesn't exist for many people. Having written standards and requiring everyone to read and accept them as a prerequisite of participation is essential. Without it, any acceptance or rejection of language would seem arbitrary. When there is a written code, people can't claim ignorance to what is expected, and they can be held accountable in an objective manner. I think almost everyone here agrees that a life with no need for rules would be ideal. That's just not the world we live in.

I don't think agreement with the rules is required; acceptance is enough.